“If there is an eternal kingdom beyond this one, filled with love and wonder, let no one feel he is hopelessly shut out from it, or being crushed under it.”

More aptly put, what the hell was I thinking? Anyway that story starts when I was in a band with Chris Wimber, and started going to his dad’s new church that met at a gymnasium and eventually became the Anaheim Vineyard. I have to jump ahead for a sec, because I can’t think of them without regretting not being around in the 90’s enough to know I was losing Chris and John Wimber to illness. Chris and I spent a lot of time at his mom and dad’s back when we were band mates, and I loved John for being open to new things he felt God was doing, but not every new thing was working for me.

I ran into a real snag about a thing called the gifts of the spirit. Its things we did while laying hands on people to pray for them. One gift was a kind of one-on-one prophecy, where God tells you things to tell the person you’re praying for, plus there was healing, casting out demons, and a thing called “slaying in the spirit,” where a person falls backward involuntarily after being tapped on the forehead. I was skeptical about some of these things, and I had no taste for exorcisms, but I was eager to get on board, to be obedient. I dove in, but nothing happened. I tried not to feel left out, but how do you not?

By the time Undercover’s first album was out, a common question we got was how we each knew we were called by God to use rock music to reach people. That’s when I started questioning my calling, because of my dilemma over the gifts of the spirit. Folks at church would ask me for a full report if I had a show that week, eager to hear the wondrous spiritual works they hoped we were doing to people after our shows. Well, that’s not what people were coming for. Back at church, I knew that to fake it, whether meaning to or not, would mock of the realness of God. So if God wanted me in on this out in the field he would have to make it happen without me pushing it, like when people push the little Ouija board thingy to give the spirits a boost. In church, people would push and push on my forehead and there I’d stand while people all around me were being slain in the spirit, sometimes haulking up demons, getting up and slaying each other. Everyone was so sure about how real it was and how it was a promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit – the future of ministry. I took it to heart and thought God was relieving me of the ministry due to my skepticism, or worse, that I was never called to be in a band in the first place, which broke my heart. Joey, Gym, Bill, Danny and everybody were dumbfounded at my announcement to leave the band, and so was I. Within seconds after the last note at my last show with them I was crying out loud on Bill and Debbie’s shoulders. If anyone remembers a baby crying on the lawn at Big Calvary after an outdoor Undercover show in ’81, that was me. At 21 and a half, I was such a kid, more than I knew.

I retreated into a life of church activities with my best friend Bonnie, and we eventually got married. She encouraged me not to give up music, and about that time Mike Stand started calling me. Everyone agreed that my not being in a band was a mistake, and next thing I knew I was confirmed as an Altar Boy and fully restored to our big musical family, and boy did that feel great. Whether I was any more grown-up at 23 and a half I couldn’t say. As for the gifts of the spirit, I still believed in them but I just let it go as a task assigned to others, while we had our own work to do and fun to have. Being an Altar Boy was loads of fun, and we kept everyone laughing when we weren’t too hard at work. Most of the time we were typical Boys.

What was it like, back in the day, being in one of the earliest bands in the Christian music scene?

What was unique to that time was all the unnecessary pain the more conservative types inflicted on themselves, reacting to the punk rock culture that was flooding their turf very quickly. One pastor, who was known for reaching out to the young, announced to everyone that he couldn’t get behind punk rock like he did for the hippies a decade before. But by our first Cornerstone Festival, what the Jesus People in Chicago were doing with their hair and earlobes—-we knew we’d always have a home there at least. And on the West coast, the hippies didn’t fear the Mohawk as their pastors predicted, and before long the shears came out. We had as many detractors as supporters, but the big angry post-punk look paid off by scaring away anyone who would give undue grief to the younger ones in our care. We were very protective of them that way, and I don’t feel apologetic now, because I think every advance in social progress was the result of both its peace makers and its rabble rousers. Not that Mohawks and body metal are important, but that the opposite is true—that everyone young and old is accepted regardless of what they look like or what their music sounds like. That was a common theme for our bands back then, and in my opinion, a kind of landmark amendment. Sometimes outside our shows there’d be a guy or two shouting petty judgments at people about hair, clothing, or dancing, and they’d meet an army of rebuke from us, for the sake of the people we felt were in our care.

Another theme was that so many people came to concerts with their deepest needs, sometimes in crisis, looking for hope, advice, and practical help with serious situations. This was far more compelling work to me than the task of delivering the facts of the gospel, especially since most of the audience knew those facts and it was the speakers afterward who did that job. Our hearts—well, I should speak for myself but I learned this watching my band mates – it was about being there for people, mostly younger than us but not always, but who needed a good word from someone they felt was in touch with them. That wasn’t hard, because who doesn’t love loving people, but when people needed help beyond what a band guy from another town can really help with, I’d come home with a nagging feeling of helplessness. Not the worst thing, because it motivated me to look for better ways to help, and it reminded me that we were more than a rock show. Screw wondering if I was “called.” When there’s work to be done, no one needs permission.

I read the note on your Facebook page that addresses your leaving the Altar Boys and ‘ministry’… why exactly did you leave?

No short answer, because I didn’t want to leave, and they didn’t want me to, no doubt. I announced it right after the first tour for Forever Mercy. The circumstances? One: I enrolled in junior college to major in psych, carrying 18 units. Two: I thought it would also give me time to do the door-banging I expected to have to do to get Holes in the Floor of Heaven made. The Boys were supportive of the project, but our record label panned the idea the year or two before when I first showed them my demo. It turned out school was going to take up so much time and focus that I felt the rest should be devoted to strengthening my marriage. My “band-guy” schedule wasn’t good for marriage, nor were other factors you know I’m already prepared to talk about here. Anyway, in 1990 I left all other projects behind to hit the books, settle down, and maybe start a family.

Why was the record label not happy with Holes?

My timing was bad. When I called them, I think in ‘88 or ‘89 for an appointment about it, they weren’t keen on the idea already because we’d just recorded Against the Grain, and they were in talks with Mike for Do I Stand Alone. Two new solo albums aren’t the best thing for a band’s new album to compete with I suppose. I played them the demo, and they didn’t jump for joy. “Truly Helpless,” “Laughter,” and “See You in Person” weren’t written yet anyway, come to think of it, so I don’t blame them. But all of that was just circumstances.

What was the motivating factor in wanting to do a solo album?

Boy I would have loved to have figured that out in ’87. But the very thing that drove me was the battle inside to understand what was driving me. The answer again lies in who and what we are inside. I’ll start small. I always felt at home writing songs with Mike’s voice in mind, but by ’87 I also found myself writing songs that were deeply personal, and given to more delicate arrangements. I built up quite a cassette load and the Boys called it, ‘Ric’s Solo Album.’ One day I had the stones to play it for our record label. I didn’t expect them to green-light it right off, but it seemed right to try anyway. When they gave me a polite but clear no, I figured Against the Grain was just out and I was into that, so I shrugged off the side project idea for some other time and place.

Looking back, my head wasn’t ready. Releasing it then would have meant talking a lot about myself in public and it wouldn’t have been a good thing – it wouldn’t have helped people. I was only starting to treat myself with any kindness about my inner battles – barely. In order to handle those subjects in a way that would help other people like myself and not hurt them, I would need to grow bigger stones. But the songs were bringing something home to me – something completely independent of sexual orientation. It started hitting me that I felt a life-long disconnection from the rest of humanity, and that it was because I let too few people really know me. It was getting harder to bury that awareness under my work, what with whole days riding in vans, airplanes, etc, where I’d get carsick from reading, and there’s nothing to do but think. After you run out of ways to crack your friends up, and the tapes of Yes, Rush, and other brain candy bands wear out in your walkman, there’s nothing left to give attention to but yourself.

So there I was, a stranger. Not a bad guy, just a new guy who would take me some getting used to, and who I kept under lock and chain, out of sight and alone in my don’t-ask-don’t-tell world. My battle wasn’t so cut and dried anyway. I wouldn’t concede to simply regarding myself as gay. Everybody knows there’s that schoolyard ordinance that no one picks the gay kid for their team. Also, the standard Christian teaching was that calling it a sexual orientation is giving a nod to sin. It was an impossible equation, discovering that what you are, is something that your articles of faith insist doesn’t even exist, or it’s a sin to exist. So I held fast that I was suffering from something unknown, unexplained and universally misunderstood, and that the only person who I believed did understand, who could help me understand, hadn’t been seen in person for 2000 years.

I never thought I was unloved. Loving and being loved, right out loud, was always plentiful in my life, but it occurred to me that by going through such a major struggle with no one knowing what it was, I wasn’t letting people know me like one probably ought to for good health, and in order to really feel that connection with humanity. I saw love bombarding me from all around like so much solar wind, but because I wasn’t open to people really knowing me, it was like love was bouncing off me, not quite getting in. I’m sure people felt they knew me just fine, but I felt like they couldn’t. I didn’t think I was unique in that, but all I could say about it was that people have inner battles that make them feel lonely no matter what, and that I was having a major one. When people who love you also know you because you let them inside you – that, I believed and became hopeful, would enable me to trust love, bask in it, and do a better job of sharing it.

So I had to sing out with my own voice. I re-recorded my home demo, adding “Truly Helpless,” “See You in Person,” and “Laughter,” and played it out loud every chance I got. It was as transparent as I dared. Not that the lyrics have anything deliberately hidden in them, by any stretch. Thinking back now, most of them are snapshots, you know, impressions left on my mind in some kind of process of unfolding. The scenery and events are meant to illustrate internal events in my life, and I guess the life of anyone who finds himself in an imperfect world, looking for a perfect God to perfect it. They describe what it was like to be me back then, but I knew better than to think my particular situation was the only one that can produce the kinds of anxieties, wonderment, ironies, and such that I was trying to describe.

The only hidden meaning I think I ever wrote, I took out. “Hold My Hand” originally had a metaphor whose meaning only I knew: “I stood at the gate at the final step, to gaze and gaze at the fires of hell, which seemed so nice and warm to me, but I did not go inside.” It was me saying I think I’m gay and we all believe it’s wrong, so I’m not going there. I cut it from the song and squeezed it onto the front of my bass, daring myself to be ready to answer any direct questions about it. No one asked, I guess because everyone found their own meaning in it, which every songwriter loves. A pastor actually used it as part of a little sermon. But I believe that song lyrics, no matter who directed at, are also from the writer, to the writer, and my previous advice, “Tell me what you mean, now, don’t scream,” was fast becoming, “Okay yeah, scream.”

I think we are driven more by who and what we are, than by circumstances. Let me pontificate just for a second. I think personal transparency one to another is one of the things the world needs, but sadly, putting your heart out there on your sleeve often gets dismissed as self-importance, and we shame each other for it. This is one of the things that keeps people shy, and like the man sang, shyness may seem nice, but it can stop you from doing things in life. What I’m saying is I’m going to spill some of my guts all over your magazine, if that’s cool. Take it as an exercise in faith and trust. I’ve never quite done this before but now I have to, because my absence left good people having to guess about some things from bits and pieces of second hand data. I won’t describe what misunderstandings have been out there, and I don’t know what they all are. But maybe we can set it all straight. It’s only fair to the people who were there.

I once thought I was doing everyone a favor by staying completely out of sight, but now I think I may have been selfish, and doing this feels right. Our work as Altar Boys was possible because of people generously opening up their hearts and guts to us. How dare I not do the same, even after this long? This is only my side, by the way. This is the start of a conversation I hope to have with a lot of people. There is so much I don’t know, which other people do.

Ric had asked if he had permission to spill his guts, I told him, “You absolutely have my permission to spill your guts…”

I’ll start with the easy stuff. Growing up gay and celibate, there was a teaching going around about what to do if you think you’re gay. It said that we each have the Son of God Himself to provide a life of intimate-yet-platonic male companionship, like it was with David and Jonathan. But there’s a catch – that if you need more than the platonic from anyone, that need came from sin, so Christianity has no biblical provision for it, no matter how sincerely felt. So I didn’t fool around, and did a good job burying any gay sexual or romantic drive I had right out of my own sight under the intensity of my work in Christian bands. Or, I just had that small of a sex drive. That was the excuse I always gave for not acting like a normal, slobbering horn-dog about girls, but I think it had some truth to it overall. Earlier at age twenty I got counseling at church, where it was taught that homosexuality is a symptom of things that one can be healed from. After a few sessions, saying I didn’t think I was quite healed, they told me to claim my healing and move on without questioning it, or even mentioning it. It seemed awfully simple, but easy for me because gay or straight, I wasn’t all that strung out on the pursuit for sex, and I was eager to be a proper heterosexual in the flesh, and Jesus’ lover in the spirit, so to speak.

Of course even once I started questioning it all later at around 28, I stayed away from gay sex because I was married to my best friend, a girl. If our environment was a gay-friendly one we probably would have been like TV’s Will and Grace. But before marriage we just knew we were into each other and wanted to share the future. We didn’t try sex together until we got married on a fast wave of new marriages at church, especially in our small group that did everything together as friends, then started pairing off and marrying. I was a virgin when I married at 23. Looking back, it was like I was 16.

When gay people come out young to lead healthy, happy gay lives, a lot of Christians accuse them of giving in to selfish desires. But in my 1983 Christian imperative to be the ever-so obedient one, a gay kid heroically choosing a heterosexual lifestyle like it was going to be some kind jewel in my crown, I was the one being indescribably selfish. I ruined seven plus years of her life, which was cut even shorter later by leukemia. If I could trade that crown for whatever I thought God or nature was gonna do to me for being gay, I would jump into anyone’s lake of fire to give her back those years. I’d give up whatever eternal rewards good little boys get, just to have spent some time with her as a friend before losing her forever. Someone please memo the apostles, to amend their epistles (or otherwise clarify) and put a stop to that kind of insane destruction.

I agree with you that transparency in any relationship is a must… how did that factor in with you being open about your sexuality with the Altar Boys…?

I wasn’t, and that seems unfair looking back, but I thought I was doing the right thing. I wish it weren’t so, but the only people who knew I once went to church counseling about gayness were my counselors, my small group at church, and the other founding members of Undercover who never gave me the slightest grief about it, and treated me like the younger brother I felt I was. It created a bond between they and I that I robbed from the Altar Boys by being so opaque. I’m sorry for that. But by the time I was confirmed as an Altar Boy, married no less, I truly believed on advice from my counselors that it was all behind me and that was that.

As time went on and it became clear to me and my band mates that my emotional well-being was suffering from something, they simply kept encouraging me as part of the team, and quite literally held my hand through all the anxiety. I think Mike might have joked from time to time that he thought I might be gay. I think straight folks often do that when they think a friend is silently gay, in hopes to break down a wall between them and build trust. I knew I had their unconditional love, but even in all our efforts to keep our little corner of the ministry focused on people helping one another who were hurting – no matter what was hurting them – the world we worked in was still after all, the world of Christian evangelicalism, and I felt that our life’s work hinged on me keeping that wall up, thinking I was doing myself, everybody, and God a favor. It was much later that I put it into words, how my opaqueness was the thing that was crippling me – stopping me from taking in the love that was all around me.

The incongruity took its toll, producing nightmares, anxiety, waves of depression, and the return from younger days of a neurological thing they call sleep paralysis. It drove me to come right out to Bonnie about what was going on inside. After we talked I contacted my church’s counseling center, and they put me in touch with what turned out to be a Christian in-patient clinic with different “tracks,” including one for fending off homosexuality. I can’t believe I did that. Two things though. It was essential to get some therapy, and lots of it. The focus wasn’t on how not to have gay sex, especially since I hadn’t had any anyway. There were people who checked in with depression, chemical dependency, abusive relationships, etc. A big part of those programs is stress and mood management, which was good.

But it wasn’t all good. I was getting all this help and it was killing me that she (Bonnie) wasn’t warm to getting any for herself, other than what they offered at church. Right at the beginning of my stay I was cut off from her, without notice, by someone – I never learned exactly who – who told her and not me, that we shouldn’t see or talk to each other during that time and that I shouldn’t come home when the program was done. When the time came I didn’t immerse myself back in our church, because Bonnie was relying on that circle of support for herself, and I wanted that for her. I moved into a sober house with some others I knew from the clinic. All I could do was agonize and pray that those from whom she was seeking comfort and advice would do a good job of it. The aftercare work there was Christian oriented, as were most of my roommates, but from different schools of thought about faith. I heard different ways of thinking, and understood them — to my astonishment. But like the obedient boy I fancied myself trying to be, I was terrified by the idea of changing any of my fundamental Christian beliefs. I went straight from there to tour for Forever Mercy, then home to Bonnie to talk about our future, and maybe a family, enroll in school, and hang up my Altar Boy robes for the last time.

The prospect of going from band guy with wife-at-home, to mom and dad with kids was a reality check for both of us – that our chances were slim to none, given our situation. She hated saying so, and I hated hearing it, but I knew it was true and we called it quits for good. With no marriage, no band, and leaving all our mutual Christian friends and church to her, I went into those ‘fires of hell that seemed so warm’ – the ones I did not go inside before – then right back out again with the singe of having destroyed the gay-celibacy I had foolishly relied on for self-worth. I raced back to school and to Christian out-patient gay sex rehab counseling, and back to that sober house, going to church with my housemates. I didn’t dare think about recording an album. I was sure I’d screwed that for good. Later, when I went to record the vocals for the album, I was sure I had lost the person who wrote those songs. But as I sang and heard the playback, it all came flooding back and it started feeling like me again, like I was singing to myself, calling out to myself, forgiving myself for not being perfect, and forgiving humanity and the world for the same.

What I had the most to repent from was all those years of holding myself up in my mind as something special for never having gay sex, because those who had, had no less right to see God in person, no less right to a hand to hold, or to dance en masse on God’s shimmering sea of glass, as I ever thought I deserved for being celibate.

How did you get hooked up with Steve and Derri from The Choir?

We were already buds from the road and worked together on earlier projects. By then though, I was keeping myself out of reach to everyone except my ex-wife. But there was Drew Jaya (Chef’s Hat Boxing), and Bert, who were long-term fixtures in the technical crews of some of the bands, who found me and hung around. I like to think maybe Bonnie, for my sake, made sure they could contact me. Bert played my demo for Steve and Derri and arranged a meeting. If I remember it right, and I’m open to rebuttal, their primary question was simply if I wanted to do it. I was prepared to say, “By the way I turned out gay” but they spared me by saying, “By the way, we heard you were gay,” like I’d taken up an interesting new hobby. I volunteered that I was, but I was getting help and I had no plans to present myself as a gay and proud Christian singer. They nodded affirmation, though I don’t remember them actually requiring any of that from me. But I’m sure we all knew what the Mothership Christian industry of that time – those above the small labels, and control mainstream distribution and promotion – might have done to any of her native sons outing himself publicly with head held high, thinking he’d still have a place at the big family table. I wasn’t going to do that anyway, still trying to fend off my own sexuality. I knew I was interviewing for a job I already held forever, but the one who came to that meeting unsure about my qualifications because of sexual orientation, was me. It was one of those make-or-break moments that came and went for me like a gentle breeze, but it hits me to know there are meetings at other labels under that giant ship that go very differently, and people in my same situation come away feeling far worse than anything I had the stones to risk back then.

But just after the album came out, it was suddenly a done deal as far as I could see. I couldn’t go out and tour as a Christian, not in 1991. News of my sexcapade had gotten around, and I heard that some churches were pulling the album from their bookstore shelves, including my alma mater, the Anaheim Vineyard. I got a phone call from one of the lay pastors telling me to come to their offices to stand before them (their words) to declare my repentance. It struck me odd, because I knew that they knew I’d gone directly back into Christian ex-gay counseling for that very purpose. What was all that when I was twenty, about claiming healing and moving on? But they said if I didn’t show up I’d be officially handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, (their words) so that my soul might be saved. I asked them what that meant and they said so that Satan would kill my body before my soul went too far into sin (too far for what?), and in order to grant him access to me they have to cut me cut off from the body of Christ, so I’d better show up. My first impulse was to be that obedient kid again, to rush to do everything they would require of me, and win back their acceptance for that dutiful child I’d been at age 21 and a half. But I stopped when I realized what that would do to him. My stones grew three sizes that day.

This kid needed help, and – just like all those kids back in Altarboy land – needed a good word from someone he felt was in touch with him. That had to be me, and seven years as an Altar Boy gave me loads of practice. So I rescued that kid from thinking he was about to be handed over to people who could so arrange his early death. Nor was I going to let him believe that his God was the kind who would send an invisible monster to chase him down at the behest of his aunts and uncles in Christ. I never felt so truly helped and helpful, so unlocked, unchained, and monster-free as I felt hanging up that phone. I was taking charge of my own beliefs, clearing out the temple so to speak.

If God is true, men are liars. I had to let God rule and nothing else – not the book, the church, not anything I piled onto my back after I set out to follow the Son of God, sight unseen 14 years earlier. If there’s a secret world – a pure world in the heart of God – then it didn’t need any of the stuff we’ve tried to shove into it in our attempts to define it for each other, requiring each other’s strict adherence. Not that there weren’t babies in that bath water, but everyone knows how to throw out bath water without throwing out a baby. I mean like, duh.

So I dove into my life, and it included dating guys. Maybe gay Christians have gotten better at explaining that by 2010, but not me, not then. So I didn’t explain, and never have. There I was, queer I was, and I was getting used to it. No God in any Heaven I could imagine would subject any of his children to the bullet-dance people were making his gay kids do to reconcile themselves for everyone’s approval. As far as I could guess, anyone in God’s kingdom who chooses to twist his own face into a painful, ugly shape at the idea of sharing it with their gay brothers and sisters, God would just as soon let them stay in their ugly pain as long as they want to, until they learn to think better, and without any of his children having to prove a case. As if.

What I never got used to though, because of the timing of my execu… I mean, excommunication… was having to walk away from the prospect of touring for Holes. I did play here and there before it hit the stores, but it wouldn’t serve anyone for me to go out under the banner of a specific world view and keep my home life – one generally condemned by that view – a secret (remember loved and known?). Anyone who’s tried can tell you, but I can only imagine what it’s like to be constantly on guard against conversations where folks talk about what they did on a weekend, who you share a home with and how, etc. There’d be no moral way to go out other than to keep it real, and in 1991, who in that mothership was gonna throw a party for our brand new label and her ‘surprise-he’s-gay artist’? I was tempted a little to go right to the Christian mainstream saying, “Here I am, your native son, let’s do a tour and yeah I have a boyfriend so what,” and let the sparks fly in full public view, as they should. But I didn’t want to drag Glasshouse (Steve and Derri) with me into a publicized issue war against the mothership, after promising them that I had no such intention. So I just let it be. Whether those were words of wisdom is strictly up to anyone, and anything can change.

My belief system re-grew with the conviction that God is a lover of truth, and therefore doesn’t require us to point at that which we can’t possibly be certain about, and call it a certainty at the expense of a person’s well-being. A choice to impair another person’s well-being on the grounds of something we can’t be certain about is nothing other than a choice to impair someone, and should be met with an army of rebuke by all good people seeking to serve a good God. Given that, if we are endowed by our creator with anything, it is the freedom we each have to imagine and embrace any thought about Him, new or time-honored, that enhances one’s own ability to live well and love well. This has to be far more important than picking the right name for God, the right book of scriptures, the right whatever, like trying to win a trip to Heaven on a game show where you have to guess what’s behind doors and under boxes.

So anyway, there I was a year later, with an amazing boyfriend, starting what has become the best part of my life. I did touch base here and there with blokes from the old crowd but I immersed myself in new things. I got very busy in school and interning at various HIV/AIDS organizations. Drew Jaya and I started a band in L.A called, Chef’s Hat Boxing, with me off the bass and having a proper go at six strings. The Human Sound (Altar Boys) was always on the set list, as well as Laughter, See You In Person, and Pretty Blue Things from Holes. It was the Nirvana 90’s and we had fun adding all that dirt and iron to the guitar work on those songs. The re-vamped “Laughter” made it onto our six song demo. Club audiences were a healthy mix, with boyfriend proudly holding my seat for me next to him while I was on stage with Drew and the others. It felt good not hiding anything or promoting anything other than brutal honesty and good musical composition. We haven’t played in ages now, but if geography and our other careers didn’t prohibit, we probably would.

I saw on your Facebook page at one time that you called yourself an evangelistic agnostic…. what does that mean? Do you still claim the Christian faith?

That “Religious Views” status was when I first signed up and I was kidding, kinda. It was at the end of a long office day, and I guess I was in a colorful mood. I’ve changed it since. My showing up started with an email from and old friend from the earliest days, Jerry Davis, who played bass with Gym and Ojo when I first met them. He mentioned running into everyone through Facebook. I had to see if I couldn’t find a way to integrate my estranged worlds. When I thought I got a pink slip from God at age 21 I thought I lost everything. When I came back a couple of years later as an Altar Boy, it turned out I hadn’t lost anything other than the time I was apart from my brothers. Now here we are, love intact, and I don’t want to lose another day. Today I don’t feel cut off from any family I’d ever belonged to. I have to say here that I never believed that Chris or John Wimber even knew about that phone call I got from church. If they had, they would’ve checked with me personally, and heads would have rolled in full public view. Nor do I feel I have to keep love under lock and chain, or that anything will ever stop me again from drinking in the deep wonders of the Earth, the sky, or whatever we can imagine lies beyond.

The coolest thing is I’m finding myself back in the presence of some of my old band mates, doing this and that musically, but mostly enjoying being back in their midst, one by one. Gym, Ojo, and I are on an upcoming Dead Artist Syndrome track with Brian Healy. There’s an Undercover track in process as well, waiting for me to be done with all this jabbering and fire up that bass.

Okay so am I Christian today? I leave that to others to decide, because faith-group identity doesn’t matter to me, and I don’t think it would matter to anyone in Heaven. I thought I was an atheist for a brief time, but my skepticism won out against it. If there are those who genuinely worry about my well being and hinge it on whether I qualify for a Christian identity, I recognize that as an expression of love. If they get to know me and they see me as one of their own, then I am and can be no other. If some see me as a child of the devil, to be avoided and estranged, I regard myself their brother no less, and implore them to think things through about how to regard their brothers.

In 1978 when I asked the Son of God to come into my heart and mind and to use me for his good purposes I meant it, and I meant it when I committed my life to his work. I’ve never withdrawn that request, or that commitment. I would be lying though, not to say that it means different things to me now than what it meant then, but not so different as I or anyone would have thought. As Christians do, I want to see a better world. I want there to be more to existence than what we can yet see and feel. I want death to be conquered and bad guys stopped from doing bad things until badness is a thing of the past and we’re all good guys. I want all good beings, seen or unseen, to be praised for the good they do, and are, and I want to be taught by them. These things aren’t limited to Christianity, but I learned them as a Christian. How can I not see myself as a part of their world, and they a part of mine, whether anyone feels that way or not?

Why is it, by your estimation, that in the world of Christendom people are so completely opposed to the idea of homosexuality? It seems that in the world we live in (inside the church), there are so many gray areas, or areas that we make allowances for, but never with homosexuality… and why is the “gay but celibate” issue so prevalent? By comparison, how many straight people in the church stay celibate, probably not many?

Nearly none I’m sure, especially given that every heterosexual can get a sin-free ticket out of celibacy via the sacrament of Holy matrimony. In addition to that, singles are allowed their romantic relationships, which aren’t condemned despite the occasional romp in times of weakness. Then, after washing themselves in the blood they still get to feel that their love itself is applauded and blessed, all the while pointing at their gay brothers and sisters with shame just for wanting to snuggle and call one another, “The one I love.”

I have some ideas about why so many people have such a disproportionately painful reflex about gayness, compared to so many other items on their lists of things they think people shouldn’t do. It’s not just in the Christian world either, but I think the Christian name is stamped on it in the Western world because those who hold anti-gay sentiments seem to run to the Christian Bible in order to defend their reactions. The more we see them doing that, the more it indicates that they can’t find a defense using reason, ethics, or common sense. Drop God’s name onto something, however, and enough people will applaud it, no matter how unfair, unkind, or unreasonable. Things are changing though.

Very long ago, around when I first became a Christian, a person related at a gathering how he was sharing the Gospel to someone at work that day and the guy told him how he had feelings for another guy. His response to the poor guy was, “Well, that’s the worst sin there is.” The reaction in the room was basically, “Yeah that’s right, you did good.” I think in some of those rooms today, it might have been different. I hear much less of that kind of reflex today than back when I was immersed in that environment. There is so much less of that than I expected when I set out to reconnect, and that adds so much to this hope that progress is moving along, and we’re getting over our fears, or whatever it is that’s been causing these reflexes.

I’m no anthropologist, but I like to think we inherit reflexes like that from our ancestors, like so many of what today are our irrational fears and hypersensitivities. It may be tied to the same impulses that produce the aversion to the thought of a male desiring to take on an otherwise female role. From deep into history men spent so much time and energy establishing them selves as worthy to be called a man. Perhaps people deep inside feel that gay guys are mocking that whole process – the whole institution of manliness – simply by taking on the ‘female role’ of making love to a man. I imagine that fierce imperative for manliness was necessary for the survival of groups of our ancestors during very lean times in history. I haven’t done all the science on that, but I like thinking along those lines anyway because it helps me be less judgmental of others for their irrational gut reactions, knowing I have my own that I have to get over in order to help me live and love better here in 2010.

Have I conquered any of my own? I mentioned a time when I was first writing songs for Holes, that I was just barely starting to show some grace toward my self about the prospect of even just recognizing my own gayness. So now, while defending people against that unkindness, at the same time I have to forgive people for having that reflex, in order to forgive myself for once having almost the same one even though I was my worst victim (I can only hope). Maybe the principle behind, “Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those….” works in multiple directions. I think we’re all on our way, and that we won’t always have to create these distinct ideological communities based on differing thoughts on God and Society, where a person thinks he has to choose one to be loyal to, disavowing all others, and thus the people in them. And in between, unseen and un-accessed in all that tearing asunder, is the love that we bear for one another, not would, but do bear. Most of us never know it’s there, or never get to. Boy I sure got to in recent months. There, I’m getting lyrical again. I always do when I think of the things we’ve been talking about.

You wrote this “It was an impossible equation, discovering that what you are, is something that your articles of faith insist doesn’t even exist, or it’s a sin to exist.” Do you think it is possible that there has been a misinterpretation in the Christian faith in regards to the theology of homosexuality?  Can who Jesus was as a person be separated from the theology that is so prevalent in the church? Are you able to separate Him from the theology?

As surely as a vague, grossly incomplete description about my friend is separate from my friend himself. If a person can’t find Jesus in any other place but the Bible, what does that say about that person’s faith in his actual existence right there next to him? On the night I decided my life belonged to Jesus, I experienced all the things people say they experience. One of them being a sense of being suddenly different from a moment before, a sense of assurance of being forgiven for wrongdoing, and the feeling of a new world opening up for me, centered on the Son of God. Nowhere in that experience was there the conviction that the person I was following was bound to the Bible. Even though it was at a home Bible study, on that night there was no sense of being drawn spiritually to the Bible as an instruction manual for my new life. It was after some arguing, and a few more visits – very long and late sessions of being surrounded with hands laid on me that I conceded to what they insisted, to regard the Bible as the beginning and end of absolute truth about the universe and beyond. It was weeks before I discovered also that the group had a label – Born Again Christian – for what we were doing and experiencing. The term as I knew it, didn’t adequately convey what I thought we were seeking, and experiencing. I’d just been saying things like, ‘Oh, I follow Jesus now, and he’s forgiven my sins, and lives inside me.’

Okay, so what of The Christian Faith, and it’s popular prohibition against gayness? Hard to say exactly, because everyone seems to believe a little bit differently from everyone else, and I don’t see any one set of beliefs I can point to, to call, “The Christian Faith.” What do we mean, by “Christianity”? While it’s mentioned in the Bible that there were groups of people calling themselves Christians by name, I find no actual commandment for a follower of Jesus to do so, and thus, no need to conform himself into a document intended to represent all we think we know, but can’t possibly be certain of. Not in order to pursue Jesus, anyway, or do his work.

Given that distinction, and our hysterical – I mean historical tendency to rule each other from our fear reflexes – then yes, it is so very possible that Christian restrictions on same sex relationships are mistaken, with deadly consequences. Whether the mistake is the doctrine of the Bible’s inerrancy or in how leaders are interpreting the manuscript for others, the damage speaks for itself in so many ways, from loss of love to loss of life, and the disenfranchisement of countless people who want God as their Father, but are made to believe he would not have them unless they make themselves into someone else. That message to many people, including any gay person (but not stopping there) is, “Come to the kingdom and live abundantly, well, it won’t be you exactly, but whatever’s left after most of what you know as ‘you’ is slowly shamed to death and forgotten.”

In places where anti-gay attitudes are particularly strong, the message “Jesus Loves You” becomes, “Jesus would love for us to twist you into something that won’t make him puke.” Not that I need a count, but how many times in the Gospels did Jesus’ detractors, and even his followers get themselves in a wad about whom he chose to hang out and break bread with? If there is an eternal kingdom beyond this one, filled with love and wonder, let no one feel he is hopelessly shut out from it, or being crushed under it.

You wrote, “I stood at the gate at the final step, to gaze and gaze at the fires of hell, which seemed so nice and warm to me, but I did not go inside.” That is an amazing metaphor for so much in life, not just spiritually, but for many things that pull and push against us… good words! Some of the most profound words from this entire article came here, “If God is true, men are liars. I had to let God rule and nothing else – not the book, the church, not anything I piled onto my back after I set out to follow the Son of God, sight unseen, 14 years earlier. If there’s a secret world – a pure world in the heart of God – then it didn’t need any of the stuff we’ve tried to shove into it in our attempts to define it for each other, requiring each other’s strict adherence. Not that there weren’t babies in that bath water, but everyone knows how to throw out bath water without throwing out a baby.”

Funny and telling what a lyric can do for a person when he needs them to. I remember after my excommunication, having that line from “God Rules” in my head, “God is true, men are liars!” I just let the words loop around in there therapeutically, Bill’s voice shouting like that. Sim’s too, our two bands having played all those festivals together. I was saving myself, or someone was. Not necessarily my very life, but most of the stuff that makes a person a person. I bet they never thought that line would have that affect on someone. Another song I’m grateful for was Mike Stand’s, “I’m Only Human:” “Nothing more and nothing less, please let’s not forget.” It made me feel less estranged, hearing Mike’s voice, which was always a kind of foundation, singing those things especially. Even in my absence from the band, it made me feel connected in a way I hadn’t before, and gives me confidence that putting my heart out there is the right thing to do. I think that’s one of the things music and art do for people. Plus, it helped me deal with the feeling of having let huge crowds of people down. It comes right back into mind today whenever someone expresses disappointment that I haven’t continued in the propagation of their faith. Slowly over my time in Christian bands, I seemed to shift from promoting a set of beliefs, to promoting, within the context of my faith, the well-being of the people within it and without it.

Are you still happily married to your man?

Oh yes, going on 16 years, in every way but legal of course. Not being legal hasn’t hurt our relationship itself in any way I can tell, but we’re the lucky ones. There should be nothing less than fully legal marriage for the sake of the countless couples who need it, want it, and so clearly deserve it. For me, an unjustifiable prohibition from a standard social institution – that’s an attack against human dignity. That’s how I’m affected, and that’s what I see affecting many people, even those who, like countless heterosexuals, don’t plan to marry. When someone complains, “Why do they need to call it, ‘Marriage’?”, I ask in return, doing my best not to growl the words, “Why do you need them not to?” Sometimes that’s the only response that’s deserved. When someone responds with a lengthy, heartfelt explanation of his own dignity, he is being very patient and generous, and it feels just like having to explain to a child why he shouldn’t bite his playmates.

Absurd that there are people who, if I presume that my love and the life I live are of equal value to theirs, are offended by my saying so, to the point of making certain that the government – aka “Caesar” to Christians – says I’m not. Who wouldn’t stand up and cry foul at the idea of being constitutionally defined as less valuable, and/or legitimate? I say let’s learn to esteem one another as highly as ourselves. I’m not the first to say it.

Do you ever think that you might record again as just a solo artist? I’m stoked about the DAS & the Undercover stuff that is coming, but Holes was a defining record in my life for various reasons. I would love to hear/have something along these lines again.

I can’t tell you how much it means to hear that, even after all this time, and I would love to do more things along those lines. I didn’t expect so many people to even know that the album ever existed. I have no idea how it did before it went back in the can. I have what I need to record music with a little help from my friends, and ideas are forming based on the things I’ve learned since my last band, and things I experienced doing this interview. I’m about to put some vocals on some not-so-serious things, not as follow up for anything, but “just because.” But that’s just to get my feet wet again. Regardless of what happens to Holes itself, or to Chef’s Hat Boxing’s music, of course I’m going to make music and put it out. I’ve been developing material on bass and other instruments in front of friends, non-stop for 12 plus years, so it’s about time I started doing it in front of strangers again, as we become less estranged. I’ll always put my heart in it, since I know no other way. Putting our hearts out there was the key to our best work as Altar Boys, and by “work” I don’t just mean songwriting, but all the various ways there are for connecting with people, and doing some good.

Interview by Steve Ruff

Where do you stand in your beliefs toward Christianity, Jesus, etc.

I would say that I’m either agnostic or atheist… Agnostic means you’re just not sure, but I border atheism. I don’t really believe in anything that has sat down and talked to anybody, put it that way.

Did you come to that because of the way you were treated in regards to your coming out?

No, no I didn’t, it was a natural progression. I’ve read in articles and heard through the grapevine that people have said I walked away from God because I wasn’t successful or because I was gay, but to me that’s sort of insulting because why would I walk away from God no matter what? Ya know, where are you gonna go if you believe in God? If you believe in the Christian God you can’t get away from him and you’re gonna go to hell if you don’t follow Jesus and do the right thing, so ya know, where am I gonna go? I would be a big idiot to just give up and die and go to hell. I think it’s pretty ridiculous to think that, and I’m not saying you think that but there are people who seem to find joy in bringing that subject up and I always think, “Wow”, but I’m just really not that shallow.

Someone asked me a real long, long time ago, “Did you leave God because you weren’t successful?” The bottom line is they must not understand the depth of their faith, or the depth of my faith and what I believe. I believe 100% whole-heartedly, I’ve got all kinds of different paranormal experiences and God encounters if you want to call them that. As I grew and started looking at what was going on, and as I started studying religions and paranormal activity and just ancient religions and on down the line, I just realized it’s all in your mind and it’s all subject to argument and it’s all subject to being not true. I just got to a point that took me at least about 15 years, where I just don’t believe in it, but it wasn’t something that I just got up one day and said, “I’m done, I’m walking away, bye God.” It was the more that I learned, Christianity just didn’t make sense, and it got the point where the reasonable doubt outweighed anything that had any substance to it, and to the point that the reasonable doubt outweighed everything. Finally I just thought, “I can’t do this, I can’t believe something that‘s not real to me.” People think I walked away and just said, “Oh God, I don’t want you”, it ain’t that, I just don’t believe, it’s just not there.

The thing about Christians and being gay and stuff, I mean the Bible says that it’s a sin. That is in the Old Testament and especially in the New Testament. They don’t talk about it but like three times in the whole Bible, ya know, they talk about murder, they talk about adultery, they talk about all kinds of stuff over and over in the bible, and they very seldom talk about homosexuality or make a big deal about it. The thing is, if it’s wrong in the Bible, it’s a sin, and the Bible says it’s an abomination, one of the things God hates the most, in fact almost THE most. An abomination is what God completely hates and cannot forgive you for, and then they throw that on gay people. What are people going to do with that? Basically they either kill themselves or live a miserable life or they do things they don’t want to do like get married and act straight. Then later on they leave their wives for someone else and ruin their kid’s lives.

I think the church ruins gay people’s lives because they just won’t let them be who they are, and they don’t understand who they are either. They put us in the category of child molesters and murderers, and that’s bullsh*t. You know most child molesters are straight, and murderers, what do you do with that? They kill people ya know? I mean, I’m gay, so you say I’m just like a person who kills somebody? The other thing is the church believes it’s a choice, like “Oh, I choose to do this vile terrible thing”, and I’m going “It ain’t no choice at all”. If I had the choice I don’t think anybody gay… you could ask anybody who’s gay, and I could be wrong, but you ask any gay person if they had a choice to be straight or gay would they choose to be gay, and they would all say no. Why would you choose to be hated by the world, be the scourge of the world, be hated by God, be dammed in the church, be ostracized by your family and your parents? To be subjected to being killed, murdered, beat up and be a victim of hate crimes, I could keep on going down the line ya know. I mean movie stars lose their careers and rock stars lose their status over being gay, so I mean the bottom line is, why would somebody choose that? I don’t think anybody would.

Then these people say that it’s just a mental thing. It’s just like being left handed or right handed, you have blue eyes or green eyes, it’s like feeling you’re a woman in a man’s body or vice versa. They think it’s a mental thing or it just might be a mental disorder. Ya know, for all we know it could be like autism or something, I don’t know. Then somebody says, “Well just because it’s a mental thing still doesn’t mean its right.” I mean, how do you deal with that? If you’re a paraplegic does that mean you’re gonna hate yourself or that the church is gonna kick you out because your not fit for God? That is what they did in the old days, ya know? We know that, that’s why Jesus tried to help the poor so much, because those people couldn’t go into the temple, they were not deemed good enough to go into the temple in the presence of God just to be saved and to be healed and accepted. As far as I’m concerned, in my life, religion is just complete 100% bullsh*t and I don’t want no part of it.

I hear where you’re coming from… that was a heavy load there, but I’m glad you cleared up the speculation about why you left the faith and…

And you know what else pisses me off more than anything? When a Christian wants to talk to me about what I believe or what I’ve been through, and I never condemn them, I never say they’re wrong or whatever… but, if you’re a Christian and you live your life the best you can and you are at peace with yourself, I’ve got no problems with you. When they turn around and say, “well you’re still gonna have to stand before God, you still will have to do that” and I’m saying “I don’t believe in God” and they say, “you’re still gonna have to believe.” That’s when I just get angry and I say “okay, you win, I lose if that’s what you want.”

I was watching an atheist one time on TV, he’s the guy that has that show Inside the Actors Studio (James Lipton) where he interviews movie stars. He’s an atheist I guess, and this one time somebody sat down and interviewed him. The last question they asked was “Since you’re an atheist, when you die and have to stand before God what do you think he’ll say to you?” He looked up without blinking his eye and he said, “This is what God will say, “I was right, you were wrong, now come on in.” You know? Isn’t that God? Listen Steve, I figure it this way… if the Christian God is real, which I don’t believe, but if He is real then He understands why I feel the way I do, why I am who I am and why I have come to this conclusion and I don’t believe He could find fault in it because it’s what He would have wanted.

I’m glad we cleared that up because I was under the same impression. I thought you had come out of the closet and because of the way you had been treated you walked away from the faith.

No, but I knew exactly what people would say. I was a Christian once, I know exactly what they do. When I came out I knew what they were going to do, they even banned our records in Christian bookstores. On Ear Candy I sang a song called “Looking for Love” which has the line “I guess I lost my faith” and I was singing songs about not believing anymore blah, blah, blah and they never said a word, but as soon as I came out our records were banned, isn’t that something?

It’s a cutthroat industry dUg, it doesn’t really appear to be any different then anything else…

That’s why I didn’t want to be a Christian band. You see when I played with Phil Keaggy back in the day, Jerry and I both did, we went to a big festival where these big selling Christian acts played like The Imperials and Andre Crouch, big selling bands back then and Phil Keaggy was really huge at the time too. So we did this festival and I remember going backstage really excited about meeting my hero’s and these great Christian people who were playing this great Christian music and I really wanted to fellowship with them ya know, I was under the impression that all Christians were good. I got backstage and all of a sudden I saw egos, I saw attitudes and I saw a**holes. At that point I realized that this was no different than anything else, and if this was the way it was going to be then I would rather just be in a regular band, go out there and play for regular people and if they turn against me that’s okay because that’s expected.

I just hadn’t believed that these Christians would really be this way… I was very disillusioned and that was the day I decided that I was not going to do anything in the Christian realm. That’s why we didn’t do Cornerstone even though they kept asking us. I would have loved to play it but I knew as soon as we played it we would have been branded. We would have been branded AND we would have been questioned, and back then I was still in my closet too and I felt like a big phony. If I’m gonna talk about truth, sing about truth and about people being honest and accepting each other, well I better step up to the plate too and not be a hypocrite like the rest of them.

Was it CCM Magazine or HM Magazine where you did the coming out story and was there an immediate backlash?

Ummmmm, it was CCM and the only backlash we got was that I had heard our records were taken out of Christian bookstores. Other than that I never heard another word. I remember the record company saying, “dUg, next time you decide to do something like this please let us know.” (laughter)

Another question I had was – Is there a way to separate Christ from “the Church” in matters like this, but I guess that would fall under the category of if you don’t believe in Christ then…

Well you can separate Christ from “the Church” because I’ve got a Bible that’s in Aramaic, it’s translated from what Jesus said in the Aramaic and they break it down in the English. Basically it doesn’t have anything to do with the way that Christians believe, it just really doesn’t. Jesus was more like the attitude of being one with God, being one with the earth, one with yourself, ya know just being at peace and loving each other, understanding each other and caring for one another. That was his biggest thrust and they turned him into this person that forgives sins and you have to accept Him in order to get to Heaven. That’s just totally unrealistic to me. Besides, the whole dying for your sins thing… you know in the Old Testament, what did they do, they sacrificed lambs and the blood of an animal was supposed to atone for your sins? That’s so barbaric. Then they changed it and switched it over to Jesus and that He died for our sins and His blood covers us now, and it’s still so barbaric. I cannot believe in a God that would kill something for you and its blood forgives you for your sins, it’s just crazy. Even the Muslims say that Christians drink blood which is bullsh*t you know?

I just think, wow, this crazy, crazy religion that we have grown up with for so many centuries and we just can’t see it. When I got out of it, got away from it and looked back at it, I thought “Oh my God, what a crazy f*cked up religion that is, it’s just as crazy as the Muslims, if not crazier. The only difference is that Christians don’t do jihad, they don’t kill you, but they did in the past. They went into countries and killed people if they didn’t believe in God. That’s our religion, and the Catholic Church started the whole thing and its complete bullsh*t. Look at the Pope, he’s the infallible word of God? Gimmee a break! The Vatican has more money than any country in the world probably, and they could feed the poor but what do they do with it? They’re keeping their money and they pay for lawsuits for people who are molesting little boys. Still people go to these churches and they want to believe in them… it just baffles me when religious leaders f*ck up really bad and people just go back and follow them anyway. I wonder what is going on. It’s such a blind religion that it blows my mind and I cannot accept it. That leads me back to people asking why I left. I didn’t leave, it just didn’t make sense to me anymore because it’s not real, it’s not true in my opinion.

As far as the interview, is there anything else that you would want to add to this?

(laughter) Well I think I pretty much said a mouthful… (more laughter)

Interview by Steve Ruff

Just a quick word before you read about Sean. Not only did Sean front Veil of Ashes, but he also played in earlier incarnations of Dead Artist Syndrome. If you haven’t ever heard Dead Artists Syndrome’s second offering Devils, Angels and Saints, you should check out iTunes and download a piece of music history. Thanks again to Sean who was instrumental in pushing me to interview dUg and Ric…

When/how did Veil Of Ashes come together?

Veil of Ashes came together over hair. I was at a 77′s concert and saw this guy with really cool hair. It looked like a landing strip coming out of his forehead. I just had to go up and talk with him, and I found out through conversation that he was a drummer. That was Mr. Phil Meads. I told him I had been working on some music looking for a band. Most of what I was working on was keyboard related since I had only taken one guitar lesson in my life, and that didn’t go so well. Keyboard and drums seemed an odd combination, but we decided to get together. Soon after a friend of mine, Nelson DiMarco (later to be a Blonde Vinyl recording artist, currently the man behind Batzz In the Belfrey), introduced us to Sterling (Brian Kirsch) a local bass player. Weird name, great bassist. Since the keyboard thing wasn’t going to work out I reluctantly picked up the guitar and started writing songs with about 3 or 4 chords all done in different sequence!

Why did Veil break up?

Veil broke up because we had had enough of record companies, lawyers, and under promoted concerts. Also, we were getting married and having kids. It just wasn’t that fun anymore. We were actually writing for a new album at the time and some finished demos do exist of 3 or 4 songs that were pretty good, if I do say so myself.

Being one of the early founders of the ‘Christian alternative’ scene, what were some of the obstacles that VOA faced as a band early on?

Our biggest obstacle was that we were too secular for the Christian crowd and too Christian for the secular crowd. Gene Simmons once said that we would be a great band if we would just drop the Jesus sh*t. It was easier for us to be part of the secular world though. We opened for some of the biggest bands of our time, Chris Isaak, Psychedelic Furs, Social Distortion, 4 Non Blondes, etc. On and on. We also headlined some of the biggest clubs in SF and LA. It seemed that the secular crowd would forgive us more than the Christian crowd, and since we had a greater impact with the secular audiences, that’s the direction that we pursued.

How did you guys end up getting signed to Blonde Vinyl records?

Blonde Vinyl… I honestly don’t remember how that happened! I was a casual friend of Knott’s at the time through concerts and doing backup vocals for a Brian Healy project. I think he enjoyed the early Veil of Ashes more than the direction we were going. Since we had sold quite a few copies of our earlier stuff out of the back of a car, I think he was excited about the prospect of bringing that music to the masses. This is over 20 years ago, so my mind is a bit cloudy, Knott can help you out on this one!

What are your thoughts/ideas on how the scene has changed over the last 20+ years?

Wow, I have a limited knowledge of the scene now since I rarely listen to Christian music. I would say though that from what I can tell the bands have finally found their way into the secular market. That is way cool. That’s what the early bands like us had been trying to do for years. I honestly think we helped open up the doors for many of those bands.

Any plans to play/record/etc. anytime in the future?

No plans to record in the future. We are old and recognize that we have responsibilities. I have an ex wife and daughter to support, and many of the other Veil guys throughout the years are married and have multiple kids, are stable in their jobs and active in the church. Also, alternative rock is a young mans game, we are too old for that anymore! I can’t imagine jumping around on stage in leather pants as a balding, chubby 45 year old. However, I will say that there are some unreleased recordings that if someone wanted to put them out after all these years we would be willing to talk.

(ed. note) There is a different story to that now Check the Veil Of Ashes face book page and see what the guys have recently been up to!)

Is it true that VOA was banned from rotation on Christian stations? Why was that, what’s the back story there?

Yes, we were banned. Our song “Queen For A Day” was sliding up the charts until someone realized that it was a tribute to Freddy Mercury of Queen, one of the greatest singers and bands of all time. I never understood why that was a bad thing. It seems to me that God granted him the talent to write and sing such beautiful music. Why can’t I as a Christian appreciate God’s gift to the world? I don’t remember who banned it first, but it was a pretty prominent radio station. A magazine slammed us for it and suggested that stations refuse to play it. And the song slid right back down the charts.

I guess this was the start of our disillusionment in Christian radio and publications. The success we had had with them was destroyed. They had branded us. I mean at one point on the first album we had the number six rock song in the country above Petra’s single at the time. Pulse magazine and CCM were hyping our record. I think we thought we could do just about anything we wanted to do, we had bad judgment and we were wrong. Also, I just heard recently we were one of the bands that LIVE listened to when they were in high school. That was a huge thing for me to hear. I guess we were in places that we didn’t even know about until now.

Getting the obvious out of the way – I know you are gay, when did you come to terms with that?

Does everyone know now? I guess that’s what happens when you come out in a Christian book. I don’t know that I have come to terms with it yet. It still is a big question between God and I. I know He loves me. I know He cares for me.

Do you believe ‘born gay’ or being gay is a choice?

I don’t know if I was created this way, or made this way. I was molested by a youth leader when I was 14. Did that make me gay? Was I gay before that? I don’t know. I think he forever ruined the ability for me to discern that. I think that science is proving that there is a gay gene, so I lean towards the born that way. From my earliest memory I don’t remember thinking about girls in a sexual way, but I was always looking at guys in a sexual way.

With the way that Christendom reconciles homosexuality, how did you handle ‘coming out’ in terms of your faith and your friends?

I was always afraid to admit my sexuality. I fought against it, prayed against it and went to ex-gay ministries. I even got married thinking that that would make me straight. I don’t regret that, although my ex-wife probably does. I have a beautiful daughter from that, she turned 16 this year. I always thought that God could never use me, could never love me, that I was a deep disappointment to Him. I felt that my parents would be so hurt by it. That my friends would ridicule me. That the church would ask me to leave. That I would be kicked out of Christian college. My dad is a pastor, I was afraid that his ministry would be affected by it. Then later while in the band I was afraid that the work we were doing and accomplishing would be destroyed if people knew. A whole life lived in fear.

I guess by coming out I feel a certain freedom from all that fear. For the first time I feel like I am me. One of the great things I have learned is that my parents still love me just the same. I am sure they pray a lot for me and that they worry about my salvation, but they love me. Many church people have accepted me. They haven’t accepted the gay part, but they accept me as a person without judgment. I guess that is the beauty of people really under the work of Christ.

How is your relationship with your ex-wife and your daughter?

I currently have no relationship with either one. I have not seen my daughter for almost 6 years now. Her choice. Never ever talk to the ex. I believe she poisoned my daughter against me by telling her that daddy was gay and going to hell. I have heard from my daughter recently a few times through Facebook. So maybe things are starting to heal or she is growing old enough to make some decisions on her own. It’s my greatest prayer that we are reconciled soon. I miss and love my daughter very much. There is a huge hole in my life.

Was it difficult coming out in a Christian book (God‘s Not Dead and Neither Are We)? Why did you decide to do it then?
Well, it wasn’t really that hard. I had just broken up with my boyfriend of almost 6 years. I was still deep in the grieving stage. I had actually tried to kill myself over the break up. When we got to the interview I felt that it was so raw and undeniable at that point that I might as well tell the world. It didn’t make much sense to keep quiet about something you were willing to die over.

When you came out in the book, were you already out with your family? (parents, etc.)

My parents know and have known. I don’t think they know about the book and that’s probably a good thing. They would want to know why in the world I would share with the world something so personal. Why share something that really doesn’t define me? I think they are right on that count. I am not a gay man. I am Sean Doty. I am way more than gay. That probably is the littlest thing in my life that I am.

How did the church and the college respond?

The church as a whole doesn’t know. I am sure that there are many in my past from old churches that know because of rumors (just got to love that Christian gossip line). Either they have quietly disappeared from my life or quietly loved me anyway. I am sure that many of them don’t want to know for sure anyway. They would just like to remember me as Sean the preacher’s kid who sang in church. As for college, they did know. They sent me to counseling there at the school. There were tons of rumors going on about me anyway. My poor sister was at college with me and had to hear those rumors and had to stand up for her brother. I did not participate in any homosexual activity at college, but they thought I did. Eventually I was kicked out, but it wasn’t over being gay. I had had a drink at a professor’s house and it was found out after I brought it up with an apology to the leadership of the school. I was given one day to pack up my stuff and get out. That professor stayed on staff for many years, so I can’t help but think that my being gay had something to do with it!

Can you explain the sentence from the question above: If church people haven’t accepted the gay part, have they really accepted you, or accepted you without judgment? Do you believe there is such a thing as ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ and can you elaborate on that?

I used to believe in hate the sin but love the sinner until I heard Tony Campolo say that that was a false statement that the Bible does not teach. It teaches love the sinner, but hate the sin within me. Now Biblically that makes a lot of sense. There are a lot of passages that deal with that. I don’t know if the church has accepted me or not. More they haven’t turned there back on me. Most of my old friends, old and young, still show a great amount of love to me, in fact I have only lost one Facebook friend from my past who heard about me and that was my high school Bible teacher. All in all, people choose to love me and probably spend a lot of time praying for me. But that’s not a bad thing!

How did the guys in Veil Of Ashes respond? Was everyone in Veil a believer?

The guys in Veil saw me as an EX gay which was something that I believed I was at the time. I even shared my testimony in concert from time to time while opening for bands like the 77′s and the Violet Burning. I think it wasn’t until I was in that 6 year relationship with a guy that I finally told Sterling. Frankly, I don’t think any of the other guys know to this day. I don’t wear a sign around my head. My Facebook or MySpace doesn’t shout it out. Although if you were to search friend by friend you would find that I have a very high amount of gay friends!!

(ed. note) Since this part of the interview, Sean has spoken with the other guys in Veil and explained where he is in his journey.)

Why is it (by your estimation) that in ‘the church’ there are so many grey areas that we make allowances for, but never with the issue of homosexuality?

To be honest I think people have separated out a hierarchy of sins. Three are bigger than all the rest. Homosexuality, abortion, and divorce. In my life time at least these have been the major no no’s. I don’t know why these are so heinous to the church. Wish I did.

Why is the ‘gay but celibate’ issue so dominant? By that theology it isn’t being gay that is the issue, it’s having sex… with so many hetero’s in the church having sex, what’s the issue? Your thoughts?

Wow, that’s a good point isn’t it? It’s like the sanctity of marriage question. Why are people so upset that gay people get married? To protect marriage? A huge portion of marriages end in divorce! How about outlawing divorce? That would really protect marriage! I think gay but celibate is a way of people passing on love to gay people. In other words, it’s okay to be gay, just don’t have sex. I think that concept has caught on in my own brain though. As I said earlier, that would be ideal for me. Because I have not fully allowed myself to be gay and a Christian, it gives me an out. It allows me to fall in love with a guy without dealing with the matter of sin. But again, I don’t think it’s possible unfortunately, men are very sexual creatures, and I think that love and sex go hand in hand. So I am not sure the concept of gay and celibate really works when you get down to it.

Can Jesus be separated from the church’s theology on this issue?

I am not sure that I understand the question. Is their a separation between Jesus and the churches theology? See, I am still not totally comfortable with denying that I might be totally outside of God’s will. Jesus did teach to love everyone, and I am not sure that most churches aren’t trying to do that. I think most churches would allow any gay people into their church. (I am not sure that I answered that question)

I get what you’re saying… by that last question what I guess I meant is that people take what the church proclaims as “God’s law”. In so many cases we take theology as what God dictates, and maybe it was never God, maybe it is just someone’s interpretation of scripture. So, in dividing the two I guess what I am saying is that do you believe Christ can accept you as you are, regardless of how a theology dictates that He sees you? You did touch on that really… in your last response where you said, “I think most churches would allow any gay people into their church,” I tend to think that I would agree with you… but, will they allow them into the church without trying to change them or without fully accepting them as Christian and gay?

Yeah, no doubt that God loves me just as I am. I still have a problem though with believing that there is a separation between what God’s law and its interpretation are. If I felt wholly that the interpretation was wrong, I would be a happy gay man. Right now I am still conflicted. Does Christ “accept” me as I am. I believe He does. Will the church try and change me? Of course! On a whole the church believes that homosexuality is a sin. Why wouldn’t they want to deliver me from sin? They would want to see me live in victory over sin. That said, I don’t think theology teaches that God does not accept me. I go back to the example of David in the Psalms. Did God accept David? Yes, and that’s a big yes! Gosh, God gave him a whole book in the Bible! God gave him a tremendous gift as a songwriter.

If homosexuality is a sin, then it is no different then David’s continual sin, or the gossiper, the tax collector, the obese pastor, the deacon that cheats on his taxes, the pastor who has lust in his heart for his church secretary, the woman that gets an abortion, or the couple in church who just got a divorce. The Bible does say, “Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?” “No”… but we all do. It does not justify it, but it is covered by God’s grace and mercy. I guess the troubling thing goes back to the fact that the church treats some sins worse than others. I don’t see them putting hands on the obese guy and praying for him, you know? I guess I will wrap this up with this verse. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

What would you like to add to this, anything that you want people to know?

Wow, I could add so much. Most of it about the struggles and the uncertainty of my own faith. The insecurities of being so inadequate before God. I kind of feel like David in the Psalms, a huge sinner that God still loves. It boggles the mind. Why would God still love me when I am such a huge sinner?

My being gay is not about the sexual aspect of it as much as it is the heart aspect. I find it quite easy to go without sex with a guy. So some people would say that I am not really gay then, but I don’t think that I could ever fall in love with a woman. My heart wants to fall in love with a man. That is where I find true happiness. If I could have a relationship with a man that did not include sex, I think that would be the ideal for me because it would alleviate the guilt and would make the heart happy. Unfortunately I haven’t found that. Because we are men it may be impossible to find two men that don’t care about sex. So I might be living in a fantasy world. I think that it may be impossible too, because people that are in love want to physically express that. So again, I might be hoping for something unrealistic. All in all, I just want to love and be loved by a man. I think that that’s the bottom line. I am afraid that people will find that incredibly distasteful, but in my mind it is terribly romantic, and something that I long for with every part of me.

We here at Down The Line love good music. Yes, we are a “Christian” magazine (whatever that means), but we are also happy to bring you articles and reviews by bands that relate to that exploration between faith and art. Seventh Circle is one such band… they are not a “Christian” band, but we will discuss that in more detail later during the interview. Without getting into the whole “Christian/not Christian/not Christian but comprised of Christians” argument I will just say upfront that this band is worth checking out on every level. This is great music, and while not “Christian” per se, it is heavily steeped in spirituality based solely on the subject matter alone. Adam Pederson is the architect behind Seventh Circle. It is his brainchild and his band. I first came across Seventh Circle because Adam is the moderator of the Saviour Machine message board entitled the Arena, and I spoke with him there at one point. I was happy to hook up with Adam, he’s a super nice guy and his music is genuine. I immediately noticed a resemblance to Saviour Machine and that is always a welcomed plus. In addition to this interview, Adam is also helping us at Down The Line with a special surprise for the future, another special edition by a phenomenal artist. I won’t give away the surprise just yet, but it will be well worth the wait! So, enjoy this read and check out this band!

1) Can you tell me about Seventh Circle and how it came to be? Where did the name come from?

In 2000 I released a demo under the name The Crimson Sky Project but it wasn’t great quality and it was thrown together pretty quickly. I can hardly listen to it anymore. After that is when I decided to switch gears and I started writing new music. It was back in 2001 or 2002 when I decided to use the name Seventh Circle. I don’t remember if it was something I saw somewhere or something that just popped in my head one day. A lot of people think it’s in reference to Dante’s Inferno but it’s really just something I thought sounded cool and captured the sound I was going for.

2) Seventh Circle is comprised of just you and a couple of contributing artists, are there ever any plans to play shows live?

I would love to play shows one day and I am actually starting to seriously think about it. Kevin Wiler is a longtime friend and he would definitely be there to play guitar if we ever did a show. I’m working on finding a good drummer, a bass player and a piano/keyboard player. My goal is to find people that will share the same vision I have and will have the desire to work with me on a long term basis. I want Seventh Circle to be around for a long time to come.

3) The music is reminiscent of Saviour Machine, are they an influence on your work?

I have been a fan of Saviour Machine since 1993. It was some years later when Eric and I really became friends and a few years we ago starting working together on some SM projects. The music of SM is a very big influence on me and being close to Eric I have really learned a lot about his composition style which in turn has made me a better composer I believe. I don’t listen to SM nearly as much as I used to but they will always be a part of me and my music for sure.

4) Given that you are the moderator of the SM board (and friends with Eric), have you ever played with them in any capacity?

I have never played with SM before but as I said above, Eric and I have worked together on some SM projects the past few years. My role has been on more of the graphic design and merchandise operations side of things. I was most involved with the Rarities Box Set as I actually was involved in some of the editing and choosing of the material for that release.”

5) Are you involved in any projects outside of Seventh Circle?

Currently I am not involved with any other projects, at least not on a creative level. I do have future plans of doing other solo projects though as there are many different styles of music I would like to do and I can’t do it all with Seventh Circle.

6) I believe The Struggle was based on your grandfather? Can you explain that a little more?

The Struggle deals with the last couple years of my Grandfathers life and the events leading up to his death. It is taken from many different perspectives and touches on life, death, love, loss and greed. It’s a story that I wanted to tell for a few reasons. I think mainly it was probably my way of coping with the loss but also a testament to a man I loved very much and he was someone who was always there for me when others were not. It was the first time someone really close to me ever died and it was difficult for me for many months.

7) Your website says that The Struggle Remixes are coming, tell me about that project?

I have always been a big fan of remixes and alternate mixes of the music I listen to. I decided very early on that I wanted to do a couple remixes of these songs and decided to take it a step further and actually make a release out of it. I have a couple friends doing remixes as well. The ones I have completed so far turned out pretty good I think. It’s not something for the average fan really, it’s more for the bigger fans so hopefully I have a few of those out there, we’ll know soon enough. I am hoping to release it in June or July. I am also working on a couple other projects for release later this year and sometime in 2010.

Given the length of time to make The Struggle, why have you chosen to give it away as a download? Are there any more physical copies that are left?

Being that Seventh Circle is just starting out, I thought it would be better to just get the music out there and try to build a fan base than to try and sell the CD’s and maybe only have a couple hundred people hear it. In my opinion it has been a success since it has been downloaded something like 3 or 4 thousand times. I’ve got nothing but really good feedback across the board and that has definitely helped me in working on future projects. It kind of lets me know that I’m on the right track. I spent a long time on that album and I’m very proud of how it turned out. It’s comforting to know that people are enjoying it.

9) I know that Seventh Circle is not a Christian band, given that you work closely with professing believers, is that uncomfortable at all?

Some of my closest friends are Christians so I’ve never been uncomfortable around it. We have a mutual respect for each others beliefs and we don’t try to influence one another either way. There are people I have met over the years that assumed I was a Christian and when they found out I was not, they actually stopped talking to me or expressed that they felt deceived. I think that kind of thinking is unhealthy, I’ve never understood why some people of faith think they can only have friends who are of that same faith. If there is a mutual respect than it shouldn’t matter as far as I’m concerned.

10) What difference do you see that exists in the Christian and secular markets?

This is kind of a hard question for me because I really haven’t been too involved in the Christian market for some time. Back in the mid-late 90’s there were several bands I liked and would listen to and I even went to Cornerstone a few times. One thing I do remember is what non-believers views often were regarding Christian music. I would tell friends of mine that I really like this band or that band, I would play it for them and half the time they might like what they hear but as soon as I told them they were a Christian band, some of those people would immediately write it off… It was like, because it was Christian it automatically had to suck or something. I never understood that way of thinking. I’ve always been a person who just likes what I like, regardless of its message. I hear about that a lot though, even today. There’s a lot of great music out there and there is a lot of not-so-great music as well… I don’t think the good belongs to one market just as I don’t think the bad does either. I’m not sure I answered the question the way you wanted but that is what came to mind when I read it.

11) Who are your musical influences, and who are you listening to right now?

Some of my main musical influences are Saviour Machine, Tool, Nine Inch Nails, The Mars Volta, Pink Floyd and The Doors. I also listen to a lot of electronic music as well as classical music and movie scores.

As far as what I am into right now, I have been listening to Fischerspooner, The Mars Volta, Tori Amos, Tool and I actually recently re-purchased the Mortal album Wake and the Argyle Park album.

12) What do you think about the digital revolution and how it affects the music industry?

There are good things and bad things in my opinion. I love that you can release an album digitally like more and more artists are doing, but my biggest problem with that is the whole MP3 thing. I’m really excited for the days when we start using wav files in our iPOD’s instead of MP3’s. The sound quality of an MP3 is just not that good. With technology going the way it is, I think in a few years time we will probably be at that point. I actually said many years ago that what I thought what would eventually happen is you would be able to get a full album on a digital music player. You would have all the artwork, lyrics and the songs in CD quality. It would be like having the CD itself right in a small player. I’m still very much into buying actual CD’s though, there is something about holding that CD in your hand and being able to flip through the booklets that I don’t think I will ever want to give up.

As far as how it affects the music industry, I think over the course of the next ten years maybe we will near the extinction of record labels all together. More and more artists are releasing albums without labels and are finding success on their own terms. This is the way it should be. Why should some record exec get filthy rich off the music you pour your heart and soul into? It’s always been something that bothered me so I say good riddance to the labels. Distribution companies are a different story though and I think they will always have a purpose in the music industry. Sorry I went on a little long there but I see what happens to some bands when their labels screw them over and it really makes me sick sometimes.

After we had already done the bulk of this interview, Adam updated his website with a couple more releases that are coming. As you read above he released The Struggle in 2008 and those remixes are coming in August (he just completed them). In addition, Adam is also releasing two other projects. The first is called Human, another full length release that will be coming out. The second project is called Horror Show. Next is the brief question and answer session we had about these upcoming releases.

1) In regards to the upcoming Human release, who are the players on this recording?

As of right now, Kevin Wiler will likely be playing all the guitars on the entire album. I would like to add some other musicians but I won’t know for sure what that will be until I get back into production on it this Fall.

2) Musically is it similar to The Struggle, or what are the differences?

Human will sound quite a bit different than The Struggle. It’s much more riff and melody orientated and will also be more up-tempo and heavier than The Struggle. There are a lot of electronic and percussive elements as well. That’s about all I can say right now until production resumes.

3) In what formats will this one be available?

It will likely be available on CD as well as a digital download.

4) Can you tell me a bit about Horror Show and who plays on that?

This one is all me…

5) Musically, what is the style here?

Basically, it’s like a score to a horror movie. A lot of orchestration and percussion as well as different sound effects and samples interlaced throughout. There will be no vocals so I really want to tell a story through the music. So far, I think it is working well.

6) Is there a back story to the imaginary film? If so, what is that?

I wrote a very rough story outline just to give me direction in writing each movement. There will be song titles but that will be all the listener will have to go by. I want the music to fill in the gaps.

7) Will there be any other media accompanying this?

At this point, it will likely just be the CD/download.

So, in conclusion, check out this band! There is so much in the works, coming out soon. Seventh Circle is a group that should be around for a long time to come. As you can tell from Adam’s influences, the genre here is broad and encompasses goth, industrial and ambient. I was honestly impressed at the quality of The Struggle when I first heard it. In this day and age where everyone has free downloads through MySpace, the problem for me is finding something that is of good solid, lasting quality. Seventh Circle is that band. You will be able to check them out on FaceBook soon, but for now here are the links to their MySpace site and their regular website. Please support this music and purchase upcoming releases if you like what you can hear. Thanks for reading, and thanks again to Adam for his generosity!

www.seventhcircle.net
www.myspace.com/seventhcirclemusic

I-Dragon-I is another band that I found through MySpace – which might possibly be one of the best networking sites for bands that has ever been created. I’ve found a bunch of great stuff there. Anyway, I found IDI after looking for a band that I am fond of that you might remember called Wedding Party. William A. Knight and Jamie McCavanagh were both members of Wedding Party and are now the sole members of IDI. Wedding Party only released one album entitled Anthems back in 1998. I found them through their affiliation with MCM music, which was originally the label and management company for Saviour Machine. Back in the late ‘90’s MCM released a compilation that had, among others, Saviour Machine and Wedding Party.

As it sometimes happens with bands (even the great ones), after an album or two they quickly disappear. But I feel fortunate to come across them again at some point. I think the internet has made things much easier to follow, and fortunately I don’t lose track of things like before. Anyway, back to the music… I Dragon I formed and released a limited edition album which I missed. They have only played live once, but they have a double album coming out soon. The future is looking brighter for IDI and hopefully we will be seeing them in a much more visible capacity. If you go to the IDI MySpace page you can sample songs from their upcoming release entitled Ocean Of The Divine Inferno. The samples that are up are just what I love to hear… driving guitars, spitting vocals above the backdrop of deeper, more melodic vocals. I cannot wait for this album to come out! I was able to catch up with Jamie and William and ask them a few questions about the upcoming release. Enjoy all that is IDI.

1) After Wedding Party dissolved, were there any other bands that Jamie and William were a part of?

William Knight is the lead singer and founder of I-Dragon-I. He founded the band after Wedding Party dissolved in 1999 and Jamie was invited by William to be a part of I-Dragon-I in 2001 as the lead guitarist and co writer.

2) Are there any other contributors to I-Dragon-I other then Jamie and William?

Libby Luckey sang background vocals on the Limited Edition CD, Steve Casto and Sean Savacool played bass and Kari McCavanagh sang the intro on the Limited Edition CD.

3) As a point of reference for our readers who might be familiar with Wedding Party – did any of the other members go on to any other bands or musical pursuits?

William Knight went on to form I-Dragon-I in 2000 and also appeared on Midnight Orchestra and sang with Eric Clayton of Saviour Machine in Mexico City. Sheri Luckey went on to sing in Psychosis, Lucifer’s Key, Dark Valentine, and Iron Scepter. Libby Luckey went on to sing background vocals in I-Dragon-I before joining Iron Scepter. Sean Savacool played bass for I-Dragon-I before joining Eastern Block in 2007. John Williams is now a pastor and Ken Lemery went on to form the band Bridgeshadows and now plays keyboards for Coriolis.

4) How would you describe the music of IDI? How is it the same/different from Wedding Party?

IDI’s music is music filled with raw emotion. It is music that tells a story, a story that began in the Limited Edition album and will be finished with Ocean of the Divine Inferno. It is a concept album.

5) Are there any plans to tour behind the album when it comes out?

Ocean of the Divine Inferno is set to be released 2010 so when it is released we plan do festivals as well as other venues. William Knight is of course available for speaking engagements. For booking info or questions please contact Inferno Management at: Inferno_Management@hotmail.com

6) Where did the name I-Dragon-I originate, and what does it mean?

It originated from William Knight. The church blames the devil for everything all the time, but we are the dragon ourselves. Instead of blaming the devil for everything we should look at ourselves and take responsibility.

7) What are your thoughts and ideas about the digital age of music, and how does this affect/impact I-Dragon-I?

The digital progression of music is a benefit to many, many bands. Speaking of the digital age, Ocean of the Divine Inferno will be mainly released digitally on iTunes.com with a limited amount of CD’s available for purchase. Also a few vinyl copies will be available for purchase as well.

Can you give anymore info on this – who it involves, etc.?

This album is still in production and is set to be released in 2010

(Beginning in January 2009 they both began working with an all star cast to produce an all new, one of a kind Sanctuary Praise and Worship Album. This album is being co produced by Jim Laverde of Barren Cross and Jamie McCavanaugh of IDI. It is set to be released in 2009.)

9) According to the MySpace site there was merchandise available at one time. Is there still anything that people can order? Without PayPal what is the best way to order?

We still currently have merchandise available for purchase. We have Limited Edition CD’s as well as I-Dragon-I T-shirts. Since we are without a PayPal link at this present moment we are looking for alternate methods to sell this merchandise. We are going through Ebay and we will be at Cornerstone 2009 with merchandise for purchase. CD’s are $6 each and T-shirts are $7.

10) What is it that you would like to share and have our readers know?

It seems over the last 10 years since the demise of Wedding Party that people believe Wedding Party was just a fad or a phase, but it wasn’t. It was only for a short time. The seeds that were planted from the ministry of Wedding Party have been watered and grown. It was never about being a rock star. It was never about the thousands. It was about the one. If only one person had been touched by the ministry of Wedding Party it completed its mission.

I-Dragon-I is a completely different entity than Wedding Party. It is still an extension of the unconditional love, grace, forgiveness, and full acceptance of our Father, our Daddy, God. I-Dragon-I represents a minion of mainstream and underground people who have been wounded, outcast, and left for dead. We do not blame the church nor do we blame the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. We do hold the shepherds of all the flocks accountable and responsible for such great losses in this secret war. The shepherds have abandoned their flocks. Don’t get me wrong, I do not believe that all shepherds have done so, but if the shoe fits, wear it.

Ultimately God is the judge. Theology, doctrines, and denominations have ruled the believers thought life, spiritual life, and even our pure existence as God’s creation here on this earth. Though imperfect, God created man in his image and through the blood of Jesus we are made perfect. The millions of prayers, screams, and deaths (spiritually and physically) surround his throne in the eternal. He is long tired of calling his people to their aid and only a few have answered his call when there should be the many. The army that is the church has failed its mission today. If we could lay down our ideals and our divisions and be one body, one denomination, one creed, one doctrine, one belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior – to bind together to fight what seems to be a war we cannot win, and to beat an unbeatable foe which ultimately is ourselves.

We have blamed the devil for far to long for our indiscretions. He can influence, he can definitely destroy, and his armies are poised even at this very moment to lie and to deceive all of us into thinking that we have no authority or power. Yet we were given the understanding through the word of God, through the blessed hope of forgiveness and grace and love to defeat the enemy on their own turf. In Wedding Party, as well as all the other Christian Goth bands, we brought light to places that were created void of light. But nothing, and I repeat nothing – not drugs, not alcohol, not sex, not the way you look, not doctrine, not race – nothing can separate you from the love of God. I-Dragon-I over the last 10 years has performed 1 concert, released 1 limited edition album and most peoples would say this band is going nowhere, that these people are not qualified to minister, that even I have committed so many sins from the time Wedding Party ended till now. From death to resurrection, in living, trying to find who I am after all was said and done. To relearn the ways of God in total humility, being lost in a wilderness, walking between heaven and hell as a ghost and looking for my home and finding no where to call home, so with this even though I may have lost heart at the state of the union of our ‘body’, we will complete the mission that God has set before us. We are not out to be rock stars. We are not out to be famous. We want to tell the true spirit of prophecy, which is the testament of Jesus Christ as well as our own testimonies, our stories, our legends.

They overcame him by the word of their testimony and the blood of the lamb

Selah,
William Ashton Knight

I hope that this article has brought you up to speed on the exciting developments that are in the works with William and Jamie. Definitely give them a listen over at their MySpace page. As soon as the payment system is figured out we will update our ‘zine and let the readers know where to buy merchandise. In addition to the upcoming album (Ocean Of The Divine Inferno) that was mentioned above, there is a part two to that release that is called A Season In Hell. Here is the little bit of info on that I found on William’s MySpace page:

“A Season In Hell is the acoustic project written and recorded by William Knight (aka: the Dragon) during a 2 year recovery period, after surviving a near fatal gunshot to the chest!……It is the second half to a double album Ocean Of The Divine Inferno & A Season In Hell to be released this fall….. Albums are written and produced by: William Knight & Jamie McCavanagh both formerly of Wedding Party”

www.myspace.com/idragoniidi (band)
www.myspace.com/dragonidi (William)
www.myspace.com/inferno_management (for booking and information)

BATZZ In The Belfry was one of those bands that I somehow came across on MySpace. I can’t remember who I was looking for, but when I found these guys I was so moved by the music that I bought both of their CD’s immediately. This is gothic music in the truest sense. It’s deep, dark, emotional and moving. It would satisfy the purists among us. Nelson is the founder of the group and started recording the music back in 2003. I was able to catch up with him for a few questions about his band. Below is our conversation in straight question/answer sequence. If you like goth music that hearkens back to the early days, you will enjoy this band. Check out their MySpace page and support them by purchasing their albums, you will be pleased at the depth and sounds on these discs. In addition to listening through MySpace, their website has several songs that are free as a download. Each CD also has a couple of instrumental tracks which is always nice, kind of like a sonic freeway to just keep moving without being interrupted by anything else.

1) Give us a history of BATZZ In The Belfry and how the band came together?

I started BATZZ In The Belfry in 2003. At the time I recorded a few tunes and worked with Marc, who played some guitar on one of the tracks. We spun up the website, posted the tunes and sent out a few e-mails and demos. We received some really nice support and feedback, so we kept going from there.

In early 2004 we officially released a small collection of songs. By then Deena and Araina joined in on keyboards and violin, respectively. The EP got some good reviews from Automata, Chain D.L.K., and Mick Mercer.

We started to get airplay on some radio stations and at clubs in various parts of the world. By 2005 we re-released the EP with a couple more tracks, which included Rick on guitar. Cold Fusion invited us to be on the Lunar Eclipse compilation CD that year as well.

In early 2007 we released Sparks Fly Upward, our first full-length CD. People said nice things about it, which made us very happy. We appeared on a compilation CD put out by Gothic Magazine in Germany called Goth Is What You Make It, Vol.6. We were in good company and it was a lot of fun. Sparks Fly Upward was reviewed in a few magazines and websites in Europe, South America, and Russia.

In 2008 we were included in HM Magazine’s Pick of the Litter. We appeared on a couple of compilation CDs; one put out by Crawling Tunes Magazine, and another by Gothic Magazine (our second time around with them).

We’re currently hard at work finishing up our next CD, which, Lord willing, we hope to release sometime this summer.

2) Is the band still predominately just you with a few contributing artists?

Yes. On the new recordings only Rick played a little bit on a couple of tracks.

3) How would you describe your sound, and who are your musical influences?

I would say our sound is unashamedly old-school goth predominantly. There is a bit of a mish-mash in there (some art rock, ethereal, dream pop, and shoegaze), but for the most part, it’s goth rock in the classic tradition.

Going way back my influences were hard rock (Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, etc), along with glam rock (David Bowie, Mott the Hoople, T-Rex, Roxy Music), art rock (Yes, early Genesis, ELP, PFM), and some jazz fusion (Return to Forever, Weather Report, Area). After that I was heavily influenced by English punk rock and the post-punk bands that followed (Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Killing Joke, Bauhaus, The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim). There were a number of death rock groups in San Francisco (it wasn’t called goth back then) that were a huge influence: The Black Dolls, Fade to Black, Dangerous Visions, and Vile Under Vile. There are probably many others, but some notable ones would be Iggy Pop, The Cocteau Twins and Switchblade Symphony.

4) Your new release that will hopefully come out this summer – musically what is it like, are you staying with the sound you have, or has it changed at all? (Obviously sounds change as art progresses, but BATZZ has a very distinct flavor, as you called it ‘old-school’)

The new record is pretty similar to Sparks Fly Upward. It’s a little more guitar-heavy and up-tempo, but otherwise pretty traditional old-school goth. We got a little musically adventurous on a couple of tunes, but
nothing drastic.

5) Do you have the ability to get out and play live much? Any plans at a tour that will follow the new release?

We have the ability, but not the will.

I just haven’t been able to convince like-minded musicians with whom I’m acquainted to put in the time to play live. It’s too bad because I think it would be fun, but I know the time and effort it takes and everyone is busy with their own stuff. We’ve talked about it, but it hasn’t materialized. So at this point, no plans to play locally or elsewhere.

6) What do you think of the digital revolution in regards to the industry? How has that helped/hurt BATZZ In The Belfry?

I think the digital revolution is a double-edged sword, in terms of music sharing and digital downloads. On the one hand it helps to get music out there and get heard by a lot of people, but on the other hand, there’s no way to make money with recorded music unless you’re very popular. It’s been going on for so long now that I don’t think about it much and there’s certainly no way to reverse it. For BATZZ In The Belfry it has been a great way to promote the band, especially since we don’t play live, but it does make it a little difficult to keep things going. By the same token, being able to record digitally on the computer is really great.

Just as a side note, after we had wrapped this interview I got a message from Nelson that the new release will hopefully be finished in August. He said that they were putting the finishing touches on iTunes and getting the artwork done. Below are some lyrics to one of my favorite songs by BATZZ In The Belfry. Drop by their website for some free downloads, check them out on MySpace and help support independent music!

Sunday Mourning
Sun, rise today, like the sunrise long ago
This day, we say goodbye, you are going home
Days begin, like grains of sand, falling
Through the hourglass, held in God’s hand

Somewhere the days are all brand new
Sunday mourning

Hiding from the thought, that someday you’d be gone
We may never understand until we meet again above
I never thought the tears would fall so easy to the ground
Before the day, before the dawn, the pain would be set free

Somewhere the days are all brand new
Sunday mourning

(Sunday Mourning off BATZZ first, self titled release)

www.myspace.com/batzzinthebelfry
www.batzz.com

Photos courtesy of Marie Healy, skelton photos by Bob Healy

You are about to embark on what is possibly the longest interview ever written. This one was a lot of fun to do. Brian and I have talked numerous times through this process and I have enjoyed talking to him because he is very articulate about what he is conveying. Many of his beliefs and ideas I relate to, and to top that off I have always loved the music of Dead Artist Syndrome. This has been a hard article to write for numerous reasons. The disclaimer is below, I felt kind of like that had to be written. The other thing that was kind of hard was that Brian kept joking about this being his ‘career ending’ interview. It is definitely controversial, especially if you fall into a more fundamentalist mind set. Trying to understand (and recover) from the modern church in America has always been a personal thing to me, and DAS’s music has always been very tongue in cheek with the issues regarding Christendom as a whole. I enjoyed discussing this stuff with Brian. I started this interview to find out if DAS was going to be making more music in the future, but we definitely ended up talking more about the church then music. One issue that we won’t touch on very deeply, even though I’m sure many are wondering, is the issue of Brian’s health. How is it? Well, I guess it is safe to say that Brian is on a timeline… the doctors have told him that. I won’t go into great detail because Healy lives with the ins and outs of his condition and he doesn’t want to invite the vulture watch (as he calls it) every time there is an issue. The best thing that we can do is pray for his health, and pray for his family. For now, enjoy this marathon interview!

6:55 PM… sitting down to start writing out the interview with Brian Healy from Dead Artist Syndrome. Going over my short checklist… sugar free Red Bull – check – pop in DAS CD – check – printing out the most profanity laced interview that I have ever done – check. Yep, that’s the way this one started out. I’m not a stranger to profanity, and I’m not really offended by it because I realize that this is just the way some people talk. However, since you are reading this I feel it necessary to put a disclaimer here. The reason this article is so heavily edited, and the reason you see all the little * signs here is because I had to tone down the language so we didn’t have to put age limits, etc. on our website. Obviously we understand that people are free to express themselves in the fashion that is most comfortable to them, but we want to keep this one clean so the kiddies can read if they so desire. It’s not about censorship, I do not believe in that, it is about trying to maintain the vision and goal of our ‘zine, and have it available to as many people that want to read it without having to worry about filters and being over 18 to read, etc. Fortunately Brian did call me one evening and said he understood and we had his permission to do what we needed to so this interview did not adversely affect us. So, if you like profanity you are free to use your imagination. The difficulty in writing this was that the profanity (in my opinion) actually expressed the emotion behind what Brian was saying, and to edit it out completely took away the passion behind what was being said. Hopefully you, the reader, can understand what I mean by that. Still, I have tried to be as clean as I could figure, and still convey the emotion and intent behind Brian’s words.

It took me getting used to Brian when emailing him, talking with him is easier. Because he is quite possibly the most humorously sarcastic person I have ever met, the written word came across harsh… I never quite knew how to take him until we actually spoke. Once we spoke, things moved along well. Brian is actually an extremely light-hearted and funny guy. He laughs frequently and tells plenty of jokes as we have poked fun at everything in Christendom, even ourselves. In addition to being humorous, Brain is very passionate. When he talks about Jesus, he is talking about the grace that he obviously values deeply and appreciates on a very personal level. With that passion comes an almost overwhelming disdain for those who cast God’s grace to the side in favor of a homogenized religious system of do/don’t and do what you’re told. He equally finds humor and distaste for those in Christianity who make a buck, or a healthy living, off Jesus and his name. Just remember as you read this, Healy’s words are directed at a specific group, he’s not out to offend everyone, rather I think he wants to illuminate those who are missing what is important… those who have been mistreated and misdirected by the system of religion.

I don’t know when Brian started DAS, I forgot to ask him. I know that Prints Of Darkness, his first release, was re-released by Blonde Vinyl back in 1991. It was first released on a different label the year before. Anyway, doesn’t matter really, Healy has been around for a long time. When I asked him how DAS came to be, this was his answer… “I was herding sheep and an angel came and spoke to me… D**n dude, I answered that question years ago, look up other interviews on Google.” Sarcasm firmly in place, we moved on. I was curious about many things with Healy. DAS was really the first Christian band that I remember carrying the ‘goth’ title around. Other bands came later, but DAS was the first. Back then times were different. This was back in the days of all the televangelists preaching to the converted about the evils of rock music. Even the faithful wrote books about the evils of Christian music. It was a strange time. Enter DAS with an album titled Prints Of Darkness. I asked Brian what some of the obstacles were that DAS faced early on, and here is his charming response. “Early on and to this day I’m the biggest obstacle to Dead Artist Syndrome. I’m a total a**hole when it comes to doing the business end of things. I used to do management and most people want some fluffy artsy guy they can rollover and jerk around and then deal with the dirty parts of the industry with some fat idiot agent on the phone or some passive aggressive women they can flirt with. Well, I am the fat idiot in DAS and I upset people by wanting them to do what they agree to.”

“Music people don’t mind screwing you behind your back while telling you how much they love you. I don’t suffer fools gladly. It’s common for club owners, stage managers, A&R guys and promoters to try and renegotiate their negotiations and most don’t want to do that with the artist, most of whom are usually pretty easy going. And let’s face it, a lot of artists need business people because they sure as hell aren’t the type of people who are bringing the potato salad to the MENSA picnic, otherwise, they wouldn’t be artists. They would be on wall street or out making the big bucks instead of doing what they love at midnight in a half empty room in some god forsaken holler. I get things done, I collected what the promoter said he was going to pay the band.”

“This is not everyone in music, but for some reason Christians are the worst because they actually use Jesus and the Bible as weapons to manipulate people and it really pisses them off when you call them on it. Besides, I make it easy for them – I don’t give a flying f**k what they say about me. I am who I am and I’m not turning into Ned Flanders just to whore myself out so Jesus can pay my rent. The best part is someone reading this going ‘Oh gee, he’s a potty mouth, I thought he was a Christian, I thought you are ordained? I don’t think he’s surrendered to the Lord? We can’t have that, it’s not Christian, and of course in interviews like this I give them the excuse they need. I want too, it’s who I am. The best thing that has happened in my walk with the Lord is when they started treating me like the unsaved friend. I was already liberated by Jesus’ blood and they wanted to jam me in a ‘American Christian fish on the car box’ – I’m free of that sh*t. My God is bigger than yours; He takes people as they are and too d**n bad for you.”

Obviously, I thought I’d hit a nerve here with Healy, but he told me he wasn’t angry he just sounded harsh on paper. So, we continue… “The sad truth is I have out lasted most of these f**kers. I still believe in Jesus and his grace and mercy. I want to do Gods work as the salt of the earth and 90% of these a**holes returned to their own vomit. They’re f**king worse off than I am or ever was, they were mostly a**holes before they found Christ… they found him, used him, became religious a**holes who judged the crap out of every one who didn’t want to sit around majoring in the minors, debating shades of white, and the second real life showed up with real problems that couldn’t be solved by simple solutions they hit the f**king door. Well, I’m still here and my faith is stronger than ever. I didn’t run, I didn’t turn my back on my faith and I live it the best way I know how, as ugly as it looks at times. Regardless of how bad I f**ked up, I know it’s real. Some people didn’t have that, they lived a lie and tossed the whole thing and if they did, so what! We are dealing with the Creator of the universe here, they can get their f**king heads out of their a**ess and Jesus is still waiting for them, I just hope they do it right next time.”

For those of you who have listened to DAS over the years, there has always been the underlying stream of sarcasm and disdain towards what Healy calls “a small but vocal minority” in the church. As you read, that is really what is coming out from the answers above. It sounds harsh I know, but it is directed at those who have held others down and judged some for not lining up to what the ’church’ thinks is right. It is directed at those who want to debate unimportant issues and those who want the church to be an exclusive club. We’ll come back to that, but for now let’s move on.

I know some of the readers here will be interested in the other artists who have contributed over the years on numerous DAS records. DAS is really a ‘virtual’ band as Brian describes it. Healy is the only reoccurring member, but some of the finest in Christian music have contributed at various times. Players have included Sean Doty of Veil Of Ashes, Mike Roe of the 77’s, Steve Hindalong & Derri Daughtery of The Choir, Ojo Taylor of Undercover, Michael Knott of L.S. Underground, Eric Clayton of Saviour Machine, Jeff Elbel of Ping and numerous others that have been a part of the ‘casts of thousands’ during different seasons. When asked how he got so many different artists from such diverse genres to play on his albums, this is what he said. “I think you should really ask that of the people I’ve worked with. I wouldn’t want to hang out with me if I didn’t have to. I just ask them if they want to play. I’ve known them as friends for years, not as rock stars or artists. Friends do things they like together, most of my friends do art so it’s no surprise that we would be doing it together, it’s not for the money that’s for sure.”

“I think DAS is fun for them, it gets them out of the box of their main project. They are the genius’s… they are brilliantly talented musicians and I stand on the shoulders of giants holding it all together. DAS is more of an experiment than a band. It’s never the same, it always evolves and changes with every gig. I never promise it will be great but it will always be a memorable musical experience and even if someone didn’t like the songs, the show and the players are too good to not be appreciated as artists and the talents they are. They just have to tolerate me as the weakest link in the chain. I also think for the players who all have their own well known bands, they like the risk of me as the lunatic leading them to the edge and seeing where I will take it that show. Hell, maybe they are just grading life on a curve and I can make anyone look like an A+ in a heart beat. The other thing is they get to work with each other as artists and the music has a life of its own. Music takes over, as a musical conversation can start in the studio or at a show. At any time musicians who have totally different backgrounds in taste and style can start playing together and they communicate musically… they create something just for the sake of doing it, and I try to capture that lightning in a bottle… that moment, that performance in a live show that unless someone records it is gone forever. I love that part of life – creation is beautiful. I guess that’s why we do it. DAS doesn’t really exist, it’s a virtual project, it lives only in the music recorded or at the live show at that moment and it goes away till it rears its head again.”

In keeping with the conversation of music, I asked Brian what advice he might have for bands starting out. His answer was funny… well, funny and long. “My advice is always the same… don’t do what I did because you don’t want to end up like I have! While I have a wonderful full life that I choose to live (and always have) very simply, on paper I am a total failure, like a notch above bum. Semi-poor and semi-famous totally sucks! All the judgment for everything and none of the perks of real fame. It’s a lot of good times and fun but even that is just a memory at a certain point and you look around and go, “was it worth it”? All my non-artist friends have RV’s or boats, houses, real families and of course 20 years in a REAL JOB where they can retire and enjoy life. With art you will end up saying, ‘I’ve got a closet worth of CD’s, a couple file cabinet drawers of articles, my beloved songs and some gear and the dream….. but you never know, it can still happen’. Oh pleeeeeeaazzzze….. Remember next time you see a singer on stage staring upwards into the lights, he’s most likely looking for his lost youth. Unless you die young, that’s the future – I’m not talking about Bono here. I’m talking about the guy singing in the lounge that you make fun of. The guy doing his lame dreadful act at the fair, the mall or open mic night. Take a good hard look because that’s gonna be you. The numbers don’t lie, the odds are way too long to think you are going to make it. If you want a life as an artist it will cost you everything before it ever gives anything back.”

“Whatever you do, never, never, never claim you’ve got a mission or you are doing it for Jesus, because if you do, you are full of s**t. God and/or Jesus don’t need you or your crappy songs to do anything. He can use an ass and has an army of angels, so die to that vision! You can’t do a d**n thing for God, he doesn’t need your f**king help! Repent for your arrogance you poor deluded fool. If you are writing songs you think will lead others to the Lord, you are a hack, shill salesman and you might as well be doing beer commercials, because at that point you have a utilitarian purpose and your song is just a f**king jingle for God and anti-art as far as I see it. Like most CCM, it’s more propaganda than art if that’s what you want to do. If you do that then fine, but it’s not a “calling” or a “mission”, it’s a gig selling a product called “God” in CD form. If you want a “calling” go teach children in Ghana music, English and the gospels or go and teach music to children in China. How about working with inner city kids in the US or playing senior centers for free, but do not claim the honor of ministry if all your life and music is just to entertain bored house wives and entertain Christian youth in rated “G” entertainment. That’s babysitting, not a calling of God. Of course I’m not talking about hymns or praise music that is designed for worship – that is a real but totally different art form.

“There are a few ‘sure fire’ proactive things someone starting out should do. Take in as much education as you can stand and learn a craft that can be done anywhere. Skills like welding, building skills, auto repair, etc. Get a teaching credential because that will free you up to go anywhere and know you can make cash to support your music, because chances are it will never support you. Never quit school for music until you have a degree. I know there are situations that look like once in a life time chances, but in the long run keep education in your career plan because you will use it in the long run no matter what the major, it will work into your art. Always give credit where credit is due, especially in song writing. Willingly sharing credit will never hurt you as much as the harm you cause yourself and others if you don’t. I have seen lives wrecked because of pennies years after the fact, it’s like a toxic splinter that is never ever going to heal, so when in doubt give credit. In general always share the pie and make the pie bigger, everything does really count in large amounts. Be inclusive, not exclusive, and get others involved. Give them a chance to profit as well as make your dream bigger for everyone involved. If you make promises always keep them and don’t make any you can’t keep…that’s one for life and music. Another thing I tell everyone is always keep your publishing whenever possible, but that takes forever to go into and if you don’t know what that means you’re not ready for the real world of music and need to learn so you can earn…get a copy of the book ‘This Business Of Music’ and learn it like a Bible so you know what you are dealing with.”

Moving back into the territory that really interested me the most, I asked Brian again about his views of the church. If you have listened to his records, there are so many lyrics and songs that come to mind. One of my favorite lines is, “Jesus I love You, but I don’t understand Your wife, she wears such funny make-up and she always wants to fight, every time I turn my back she’s waiting with a knife.” Healy has the talent to drive a point home with humor and sarcasm, but in a way that has never come across as alienating. Perhaps it alienated some, but for me I always appreciated the lyrical style. In talking about the church with Brian and after soaking in his first, somewhat abrasive, response I pushed deeper. I told Brian that I understood his frustration with the church. I knew it had been somewhat of a focus with DAS, but I asked him that if he thought he might have become close-minded himself, just from the other point of view? From his earlier response I asked if he really believed that people didn’t think that God accepted him as he was? Brian relates, “I think I need to clarify that I have no problem with the church at all. I think the majority of the church is doing just great and they are trying to be Christ on earth and do his work. I have a major problem with a small, but vocal, group of fundamentalist dominion theology based people in America who have hijacked Jesus for their own twisted view of Christianity… for their own power, financial and political gain. These people do not accept people as they are until they either whip them into submission to their causes/belief system, or drive them from Christ unless they build him in their image. This is not something new; this is something that has always been a problem. It is something Jesus faced in his time on earth. It was the vehicle which was used and that lead to Christ’s crucifixion. Still that lesson has been lost or ignored. I find I am in a place of God’s grace and mercy in spite of myself, not because of it. I truly believe that God is the author and finisher of our faith, but I keep running into or seeing people who want to act as editors by demanding more from people than God does.”

“Jesus wants people to be themselves and be honest with Him, but to a group of people in America that’s not good enough for them. They have to sign off on a list of bulls**t to prove they are saved and most of it is more culture based than faith based. I’ve seen people’s faith called into question because of who they voted for and because they disagreed with Rush Windbag, James Dobson or Glenn Beck. Seriously!? D**ning someone to hell because of a f**king talk show host!? How f**ked up is that? God forbid they have a real issue or they might be gay or they’re liberal or the ultimate… had an abortion. Oh please come to our church so we can tell you what a murdering slut you were, or its okay fag we don’t hate you anymore now that you’ve joined our club… just don’t be gay because we will disown you. Meanwhile with straight sex issues people look the other way. The people I’m talking about are the people who build walls to keep the wrong people out of our churches. Well f**k that! I want churches filled with whores, junkies, gay, straight, rich, poor, homeless, all colors, legal and illegal aliens, all backgrounds and the more f**ked up the better… WELCOME! Christ came to heal the sick and save us, not start a country club. The group or individuals I b***h about claim they want that, but really they don’t. They want to hide and keep their life from the evil sinners. I want to vaccinate people from evil, not quarantine them. Real faith is dangerous and churches aren’t suppose to be safe. Jesus isn’t safe, look who he hung around with. The church should look like Matthew’s party, not a hiding place from the world.”

“As for the second part of your question, it’s kind of ironic… usually I’m accused of being too open-minded or liberal. I can understand how someone might interpret me as close minded, but rest assured that’s not the case. To quote Leonard Cohen, “They sentenced me to 20 years of boredom for trying to save the system from within” The easiest thing for me to do is walk away and not care. I have many Christian friends who have given up on evangelical or non-denominational churches and have fled back to orthodoxy which is fine if that’s where they feel they need to be. I would rather try and expand the body of Christ to the point where the whack jobs are marginalized so the people that don’t fit in have a place to land. I know a lot of what I’m saying is hard for some people to hear and I know I have a very loyal fan base that has to put up with a bunch of crap even if they wear a DAS shirt to church or Cornerstone. I’m very grateful for them for defending me and my music, but I don’t do this for money, I don’t do it for fun , I do it because no one else can take the risk. I have lost a lot of things in life I cared very deeply about, and that has freed me up to be controversial and be the bad guy bursting the bubbles and myths that have been sold off as Christianity in the church and in CCM. Most my other friends in music don’t have this luxury. They know the rules and they play by them, I can’t. I would rather try to change the game and let the chips fall where they may. If this all ends tomorrow at least I know I did my best to do what I believe God and this life have given me to do.”

Okay, I know this is a long story, but I wanted to figure out how to bring this back around. I see the flaws with the few, vocal fundamentalists. Oddly enough, while we were doing this article one of these guys popped up in a thread that Brian started online. I won’t say who it was, but the anger and intensity behind this guys words was almost unbelievable. So, my next question to Brian was how we take back the church seeing that it has gone so far off course. How do we bring it back around to being about Jesus, not a political party, not of set of rules and not a system of ‘do & don’t’ so God will be happy with us. I knew his answer would be controversial, but it was eloquently simple as well. Healy said, “I have yet to see any scandal, any problem in the church, or with any ministry, that could not have been solved a lot sooner had someone just done something really simple, and oddly enough it’s something Christians are very reticent to do… that’s call bulls**t!. I have seen more lives or ministries and more people go under because no one had the nerve to just say bulls**t! They heard someone say something that they knew was untrue, that they knew was ridiculous, but they didn’t have the nerve to just say bulls**t!”

“I mean you think about it , Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart , James Dobson, Ted Haggard, Larry Norman, Keith Green and all these guy’s… if someone would have just said Bulls**t, you’re out of your f**king mind! That’s not the way the faith is, it’s not the way it works. There’s no scripture to back that up, what the hell are you thinking! WAKE UP! They were just as betrayed as the people they let down, we owe it to our pastors and leaders to call bulls**t! Now, while I think that needs to be handled with grace and compassion under the same way you would approach someone under Matthew 18:19, I also believe at the same time calling bulls**t would save the church a lot of trouble.”

“Oddly, the church would rather not do that, they’d rather let the insanity go on as long as it appears people are getting “saved”. Folks just look the other way even though it’s something that they know has nothing to do with Scripture or the Bible. It’s almost that it’s so socially uncomfortable, or so popular and profitable, they’d rather just let it go south and burn the bridge and the good, misguided or simply wrong people who got suckered are just grist to the backslidden mill because they were betrayed. We sort of use it to just glean the herd as if their lives or hearts mean nothing. We have to get to a point of maturity and as the body of Christ to just know bulls**t and not standby while some guys try to make a cultural issue spiritual, call Someone’s giving some testimony that obviously doesn’t make sense about how many thousands of dollars a day they spent on their drug habit, call bulls**t. Not only do we owe it to ourselves as His church, but we owe it to them as brothers and sisters in Christ not to be this deluded and not to be falling down or running toward the wrong path. By us calling bulls**t we are doing them a favor. If someone called bulls**t on Jimmy Swaggart when he preached on rock music, it may have saved his ministry… but to not have the nerve to do it when some pastor was going off on rock music?! If someone had just said, “bulls**t, you’re nuts”, instead of going to start going down this insane slope of your own opinion becoming equated to scripture. That would have saved others a lot of time, pain and struggle. When in doubt, call BULLS**T!”

After numerous releases that have pleased the ears for the last couple of decades, what is up next for Dead Artist Syndrome? That brings us back around to the beginning of this interview, back to where we asked Brian about obstacles. Healy confesses, “The other problem (back to the original question) is that I’m lazy and I get bored easily, hence the sporadic work habits. When I work at it I’m tireless to the point of manic but knocking over the first domino to get the ball rolling takes me more effort than the task at hand would. I put it off until I d**n well have something to say. I love doing it; I just hate the crap it takes to put the pieces together. I got into music, acting and the other arts I partake in to get out of having a real job, but it is in fact a real job and hard work to create. That said, it has great perks and its the real job I hate the least”

“I have a lot of unfinished stuff on my hard drive like Kissing Strangers, which is the next DAS project. Now I just need to get the lyrics and vocals done, but by the time I start to mess with it my mind has moved on and I simply can’t fain interest because probably have a new idea I’d rather start. I feel bad about it because someone would kill to have my gear or my home studio. I use to bag on Derri when he had Neverland that if I had his studio I’d be in it everyday… well, thanks to technology I have a pretty good studio but what I didn’t understand was it’s not just looking through the glass saying ‘OK, hit record and I sing.’ It’s like living on own your own the first time and you realize butter doesn’t magically appear in the fridge like when you were a kid, you have to buy it and put it there. Well, the mic just doesn’t set itself up, the EQ doesn’t dial itself in, the mix just doesn’t magically appear in the headphones, you have to do it. When it was the old days you went to a studio and you did it, and did it quickly because time is money and you are paying for it. When it’s a room down the hall and it’s always there taunting you, it’s hard to say goodbye to a book or Speed TV to go down the hall and get it done. It can make you lazy or a workaholic. I kind of choose lazy… that and you spend so much time learning to use the always changing technology that you’re too bored to use it and you convince yourself you got something done when the actual art hasn’t really progressed. Me and Eric Clayton joke about it all the time because we both like to live in all night hermit mode till the last possible minute when you bring other people into a project.”

“The down side is when working alone no one is there to say ‘hey, you wasted eight hours running down every rabbit hole the gear has, pick one and move on’. To us we can lead ourselves to believe its productive because the more you get done on your own, the smaller the box becomes for someone to come in and mess it up with their creativity and talent, which you want, but at the same time you want that maniacal control over the song. Of course it cuts both ways… like a Mike Roe or a Derri will show up, totally get where you’re going and it works. Better yet is after all that time you put in and they think you’re crazy, hearing it totally different than you do and take it to a place you never thought of but it magically sounds exactly like what you were hearing in your head. It’s not always parts or notes; it’s a feel, a tone, a sound or something that’s almost mystical where it just sounds right. That’s the most incredible feeling when you all look around the room and go ‘Oh Yeah’ and everyone knows that’s it!”

Well, after wetting my appetite with the Kissing Strangers nod, I asked (and hoped) that maybe Healy might have that album coming out sooner then later. I asked him about the upcoming release being this year, and even asked him about a possible collaboration with Eric Clayton. The collaboration was not something rumored; it was just something that I, as a fan of both bands, had often thought would be really cool. After hearing them work together on Jesus Wants You To Buy This Record, I was hoping something else might be on the horizon. Healy responded, “I’d like the release to be this year, but no promises. I have to start liking it again and get to know the songs a little better and see if that’s what I really want to say or do. Today I like it, the next time I mess with it I might wonder what the hell I was thinking and toss the whole thing and start over. For all my lack of talent I really take this part of my life seriously and don’t just like tossing out product for the hell of it. In regards to working with Eric Clayton, someday that will happen. We talk about it all the time, but we work so slow apart from each other, together it would be like who outlived the other to get to the final mix.”

So then, in conclusion I ended by asking Brian about the subject of (you guessed it) the church. There has to be a way to bring this home, to share the idea of bringing unity in this body of believers. Since it is such a small part of Christendom that seems to speak so loudly, how do we take back the small part of the church that has lost its way? Brian answers, “Well that’s the easiest question you have asked because Jesus gave us the answer on the cross: Forgive them, they know not what they are doing. It’s that simple and it’s that hard. People of faith need to revolt in love, grace and forgiveness, it’s time to turn the tables on the church and the world. We need to trust and believe in the grace that we are saved by and not our own desire for fairness… look, I have said some very harsh things in this conversation and I’m people can and will say I have been unloving, ungracious and judgmental and like everyone else I’m sure I can and have been guilty of that and will be till the day I die. I don’t claim superiority, just the opposite because I am as guilty of all that I accuse others of. I am a sinner saved only by the grace of God, the complete and total undeserved favor of God bestowed on me by the death of Christ , the only begotten Son of God, on the cross. Nothing I can say or do will add or take away from that simple fact that though I am a sinner, Christ died for me. While I know all that, at the same time I have seen the church go down one stupid rabbit hole after another like Alice in Wonderland buying into to whatever crack pot idea that other Christians, the media, or the big name author/pastor of the month hands them.”

“A lot of it can be avoided if people actually learned what historic Christianity, and our church fathers, are about. The church fathers, you know the guys who lived and died 1000, almost 2000, years before 1776. Before our country, before Columbus, we had a long historic Christian faith. What was accepted? What was rejected? The talk, the debates, their writings, learn to understand the pitfalls and strengths of your current beliefs in light of how the church fathers saw those ideas you hold and simply trust in God and His grace. All that said, I always stress three basic things in all these stupid interviews because I’m just like any other idiot looking for the light in darkness. Remember, always question authority, be yourself and be honest and never believe you totally understand the ways of God. Always live everyday under God’s mercy and grace with the full knowledge that there but by the grace of God go I.”

If memory serves me correctly, I first came across Motonaut on MySpace. I think they liked the influences on our music list and mentioned something about Mike Knott. I can’t really remember, but I liked their music and added them to our friends list. Probably about a month later Matt emailed me and asked if I wanted to review the CD they had sent us, I said ‘sure’ and he mailed it to me. When I got the disc in the mail I popped it in and thought this was quite possibly one of the best indie discs that I have heard in a long time. I was pleasantly surprised. I buy a good bit of indie stuff from bands that I find on MySpace, but rarely am I as pleased as with Motonaut. The disc is entitled The Now And The Not Yet, and my only complaint is that it isn’t longer. We reviewed the disc in an earlier edition of Down The Line, and this is one that you should check out and support. You can find the review in the archives section of our little zine! So, back to the band…

Motonaut is Mike Indest and Jesse Maizlish. Mike handles vocals and all the music/programming, and Jesse adds vocals that support and gel really well with Mike. I asked Mike how the music came together, and here’s the scoop. “I really wanted to do something different. I wrote the songs on the guitar and recorded some of the songs with guitar, bass, drums, piano, etc. but I was kind of burnt out with standard arrangements, so I started looking for a way to do it a bit different. I had actually tried adding some different things to those recordings, stuff like accordion, melodica and exotic percussion, but it still was not exciting me. So I decided to go the opposite direction and use limited instrumentation.”

The limited instrumentation works well. This is a disc that on first spin was really hard to classify, but I guess the ‘electro pop’ tag works well. The lyrics are really thought provoking and deeper than the standard fare. So, how did the band come together? Mike explains, “Well originally it was just me. The more the songs started to come together I started to figure out where I wanted to go with it. The lyrics were kind of open and direct, maybe a little sad, and the music was fun and upbeat, so I decided to work with those differences and play it out a bit more. I recorded my vocals really dry and upfront against the techno music, and Jesse’s vocals added an ethereal contrast to mine.” While Mike calls the music techno, it is not techno in the sense of Joy Electric or Dance House Children. The music here is minimal and almost a vehicle to carry the lyrics along. Mike continues, “So I brought Jesse on board because with the ReBirth program I had two mono synths, two drum machines and this idea to have contrast with the arrangements. I had known Jesse for a while, and I knew she sang, but I had never heard her sing except for singing along with songs at the art gallery where she worked. I played some demos for her and she was into it. She came over for about an hour one afternoon, we knocked out ‘Gravity’, it sounded great and away we went.”

When it comes to influences, their lists are long and as varied as they come. Mike is a huge fan of Michael Knott as we said earlier, but he’s also into The Alarm, The Choir, 77’s, Terry Taylor, 441, Undercover, Waterboys and Pedro The Lion. Jesse is more influenced by hip hop and a slathering of groups like Snow Patrol, Iron & Wine, Madonna, Talking Heads, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Prince, Modest Mouse, etc. The influence list is long and diverse, but the mish mash of what moves them comes out in a nice way.

When Mike is not playing music, he holds down two diverse jobs. One is doing the morning show at a local Christian music station. His other job is no surprise since he lives in the 9th ward in New Orleans. His second job: he is part owner in a walking tour company in the French Quarter. They do ghost, cemetery and voodoo tours. The radio job he has been working for 15 years. I, for one, thought it would be pretty cool to have a ghost/cemetery tour job, but then again I am a fanatical horror movie fan (much to my wife’s dismay). Anyway, as Mike puts it, “The tour company is fun. I just started a spiritual history tour that is really thought provoking and engaging.”

Since I met Mike through MySpace, I asked him how that website and the digital revolution have impacted Motonaut. “Having a very limited budget”, Mike explains, “ if it were not for the internet there would be no way we could have done this fifteen years ago. From mastering, getting CD’s out, getting on Amazon, iTunes & Napster and mailing press kits to magazines, our total cost was about $400.00 – that’s amazing! MySpace seems to be the best marketing tool for us, the networking is amazing and finding an audience that you think might like what you’re doing is fairly easy, although very time consuming. I have not got back any numbers from the digital distribution sites, but I have received emails from folks who bought the downloads and that is exciting. I’m not expecting to sell a bunch of copies, and that’s not what this is about, but it is very cool to hear from someone in Montana that found us and bought the songs. That is something that never would have happened before the internet.”

As I stated earlier, the only drawback to this disc was that I thought it was too short. So, what’s in the future for Motonaut so we can hear some more music? Funny you should ask… “We are hoping to record a 7” over Mardi Gras, and then another E.P. soon after that”, Mike states. “Musically the new stuff is a little bit different… more dissonant maybe, lyrically the new songs are more focused on failed, messed up relationships with people and not like The Now And The Not Yet that was focused on God. These songs are brutally honest and maybe a bit unnerving to listen to. I am trying to record two new songs for a 7” that a small indie label wants to put out. Hopefully we can get them done in time.”

An update: Since Mike and I talked he has updated his MySpace page with a blog stating that he has finished writing the new E.P. Now comes the laborious task of programming and putting it all together. Looks like the hope is to have it out before summer ends. Check out all things Motonaut here: www.myspace.com/mikeindest

The Sound Gallery is one of the most unique projects that I have come across in the last year. Herb is the sole member, and his MySpace page describes the music as “ambient, experimental, noisy and sometimes beautifully out of tune.” He has put out three different recordings, Designed For Reading followed by Phos and rounded out by my favorite Umbra. I would describe the music as a lush landscape of sonic intrigue. It is ambience that is dreamy, undefined and relevant. I go into my office, pop a disc in, turn it up really loud and just kind of float into the music. This is the kind of stuff that bleeds emotion.

I asked Herb about how the band came about. “While in the Violets I started working on my own material, mostly to see what I had in me. I knew I wanted to stay away from traditional structure and bass playing. I wasn’t happy doing music with the Violets anymore and I wanted to see if the ideas I had would help me get excited again. The first real step to making it all happen was quitting the Violets and asking Eric Campuzano, Jan Johansen and Sarah Hepburn if they would be willing to hear a few tracks I was working on. I wanted to see if they had any ideas they wanted to contribute. When they said ‘yes’ I knew I had to actually work on this, they had called my bluff. From that point I started asking a few more friends to be a part of what would later become Designed For Reading. In my opinion, the best moments of that record are what everyone contributed.”

Each recording from Sound Gallery is unique in its own way. In asking Herb about what he liked about them individually he said, “As simple as it sounds, the strong point of each release for me is that I achieved exactly what I was going for. I was able to say what I wanted to say musically with each one. On Designed For Reading I wanted this to be in the idea of “This Mortal Coil” in the sense that I had different musicians come in and add their take on the material. My favorite parts of the record are the performances they did. Phos was written for my brother-in-law who got me into dark ambient music. A friend of his died and this was a small way of saying I was sorry. I wanted to convey three emotions, one with each track – sadness, anger and hope. This record was primarily guitar and bass which was another goal I set out for myself. I did do a little keyboard and a very short drum beat at the end of the track “Phos III”, but the rest was guitar and bass as the source. As a listener, Umbra is my favorite. In the dark ambient genre I feel Umbra could hold its own. To me it sounds very spacious and claustrophobic at the same time. This is one to listen to with headphones on.”

Herb’s history is long and varied in the music scene, and the future is looking good as well. His next work will be him playing on his wife’s upcoming release. His wife, Leslie Dupre-Grimaud, has also been in the scene for many years. Leslie was in Café Noire which unfortunately has not been together for some time, but you really need to check out their MySpace page and listen to the tracks there. She also did the song “Monica”, which appeared on the Metro One compilation “Hi”, with Steve Hindalong, Derri Daughtery, Tim Chandler and Chris Colbert all playing on the track. In addition she has done vocals on a who’s who of bands including The Violet Burning, The Prayer Chain, At The Foot Of The Cross Vol.1, Raspberry Jam, Honey, The Kreepdowns and The Sound Gallery.

About Leslie’s upcoming release Herb says, “I’m really excited about this project. It’s been a long time coming and we’re finally giving her material the proper treatment it deserves. We did some demo takes at our home studio in 2005, but I’m not the right man for the job when it comes to her work. Andy Prickett approached us and we started laying down the parts. I’ve already done some bass and a little keyboards… we’re taking it slow due to schedules. It’s basically Andy, Leslie and myself. It’s her songs and her vision under the direction of Andy who is the producer and engineer. We’re not working towards a release date at this time, my guess and goal is for this year. Andy is working on a project that will keep him busy for one to three months, after that we will be hitting the studio more frequently. Her MySpace page will be updated with photos and any new information as it unfolds. We will probably release it one track at a time, that’s how we’re recording it. I think the tracks will be available through Northern Records. You can listen to the four demo tracks we did, plus the song she did with The Choir guys at her MySpace page.”

With the last Sound Gallery release being from 2007, I asked Herb about the possibility of any upcoming releases and if they would be in the same vein as the last three. “I don’t have anything ‘on tape’ at the moment. I’ve switched from PC to Mac so I’m going through the learning curve right now. Not very inspiring, but I have some ideas spinning around in my head. I have a friend who designs and builds analog modules for a living and I would like to see what I can come up with using that kind of gear. I want the next Sound Gallery release to have a Umbra feel with some sequencing, a few beats and definitely some serious modulation. I also have this idea of doing a Halloween soundtrack. Every time Halloween rolls around I’m looking for a good scary sounds CD and they all fall short. It would probably be more for myself and a few friends, but it’s an idea I’ve toyed with for some time and would have great fun doing it. It‘s on the ‘to do‘ list.”

Speaking of Halloween brings me to Herb’s brilliant list of influences. I read his MySpace page and thought to myself, wow – this guy’s list is amazing! I definitely share the list of bands and movies with him. He thinks that Boris Karloff was a genius, and we both share interest in Nick Cave and his unparalleled catalog of work. In asking him what influences him these days he said, “I’m guilty when it comes to long lists of music, but there isn’t anything that’s influencing me in a musical sense currently. The last thing that really affected my music was when my brother-in-law introduced me to “Lustmord“. It had a huge impact on The Sound Gallery. Music became interesting to me again, but that was about five or six years ago. There are musicians out there doing some great music that I still am moved by but aren’t necessarily an influence on my music: Wovenhand, Cat Powers, Grinderman, I Love You But Have Chosen Darkness, Ceremony M83, Nine Inch Nails, Seerena Maneesh, Ladytron, and anything Cyclic Law puts out is always worth checking out. “

Speaking of long music lists, he cites a ton of old school punk rock bands as influences. Seeing the list begged the question was he ever going to put out a punk record. His response was keen, funny and informative. He said, “I’ve already done three of them as The Sound Gallery. To me punk is a philosophy, not a sound or a style. It was a fantastic movement that (like all great ideas) ended up getting whored out and boxed into something that you buy at Hot Topic. As far as a ‘white heat’ feel that people like Minor Threat, The Clash and The Birthday Party did, I’m not in that place. Even those artists are not expressing themselves in that way, but there is no doubt that Ian Mackaye or Nick Cave are not punk rock. I would highly recommend people checking out John Lydon’s book “Rotten – No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs” and watching the documentary “Joe Strummer: The Future Is Unwritten.” The truth is out there.

When it comes to the digital age of music I was interested in Herb’s opinion due to the fact that I found out about his band, and purchased his CD’s through his MySpace page. I asked him how he thought the digital age had impacted and influenced the scene, and whether or not he felt that was positive or negative. He responded, “I like the entire digital movement, from the way records can be made now all the way down to downloading music. From a recording aspect I find it easier and not so costly doing it on a computer, but I must admit there’s something wonderful about recording in an actual studio with tape. I think the impact it’s made for the scene and the music world in general is it allows the musician to be more hands on. It’s more punk rock that way. A lot more people can have a home studio and take their time. If I want to work on an idea that I get and its three AM, I can just turn on my machine, plug in whatever instrument and go. However, it will never replace shooting pool at the Green Room with friends who stop by while you’re working on something. The only real negative I see is there’s no real sense of community anymore. Everyone, at some point, in Southern California recorded at the Green Room. You felt like you were a part of something, if only for that moment, while laying down your tracks. With everyone having a home studio, you eliminate that sense of community. The guys at Northern still have that sense of community which is great. I’ve seen Prickett and Campuzano more recently because of the recording we’re doing for Leslie than I have all of last year.”

So, check out The Sound Gallery! I would recommend buying all three albums, but if you don’t have the coins for all three then I would get Umbra first followed by the other two. Just make sure that you do get all three. Listening very loud is also recommended, perhaps the best way to listen is with headphones because there is a lot going on that you don’t want to miss.

Links:

www.myspace.com/thesoundgallery
www.myspace.com/lesliedupregrimaud
www.myspace.com/grimaud
www.myspace.com/cafenoire
www.myspace.com/raspberryjamoceanic

Photos courtesy of Mike Stand

The Altar Billies (L to R): Johhny X, Mike Stand,  and Chris “Cowbell” Cummings.

Mike Stand really needs no introduction here. The lead singer / front man for The Altar Boys is steeped in history within this music scene, and will still be around for a long time to come. I was excited about getting an interview with Mike for a couple of reasons. I love The Altar Boys and I still spin their records (yes, vinyl) routinely at my house. I also appreciate Mike’s solo output. His first solo record Do I Stand Alone was a musical milestone in my life. It was one of those albums that – when I first heard it as a teenager – made me feel okay to be me… or it made me feel a little more okay to be me. I felt that it was okay to question, to be honest and to speak up. It’s a great record. The Altar Boys were revolutionary in the Christian music scene. When they started there were very few bands making this kind of music. There was The Lifesavers, Undercover, Martus and maybe a couple of others. They were one of the first to be sure, and they left a mark upon this music scene that still holds up well.

Mike was kind of like a ghost for a long time. I tried adding The Altar Boys to my MySpace friends list but that didn’t work, I tried FaceBooking him but that didn’t work either. Obviously Stand isn’t really his last name and I had no clue what it was. I had just about given up on finding him when Beth Jahnsen from Take Two Productions came through and hooked me up. I want to say thanks to Beth and to Mike for this interview, it was a joy to do. Mike first contributed to our last issue dedicated to Gene Eugene, and that is up at our website so check that out if you haven’t already. Mike had some great answers to the questions – there’s history here and what he’s up to now which is very cool. This is just straight question/answer stuff to make it an easier read – enjoy!!!

When / how did you first get into the industry?

The Altar Boys first recording was in 1983 with Dan Willard on the MRC label. We recorded “Where’s It Gonna Lead You” for a compilation with Undercover and other bands, it was called What’s Shak’n. We put out the first Altar Boys recording in March of 1984 followed by 4 more recordings.

Can you give a little back story on the Altar Boys and how that came to fruition?

In 1980 I committed my life to Jesus Christ and began working on my salvation with “fear and trembling”. I began playing in a Christian rock group called “Image” with my cousins Jeff and Bill Crandall and a guy named Armand Barocio. We were not really that good, but it was a start. The band lasted for about two years.

Anyway, Bill and Armand kind of dropped out of Image after about a year and we got a different bass player along with Ken Tamplin from Shout but that really didn’t work either. Jeff and I decided to form a different band – the Altar Boys name came later. Ironically, we auditioned lead singers, and someone who could be a front man. I had no intention of being the main songwriter, singer or front man – it wasn’t even on my radar. As you might guess we couldn’t find anyone who fit the bill, so at some point I decided just to do it – I suppose it worked out in the end and was meant to be.

I remember in 1981 I went to see my brother’s band “The Lifesavors” play and became inspired. I became good friends with the guys in Undercover and began writing songs with a more punk feel to them. I kind of felt that I was just writing Beatles music that was sped up. We did experiment with ska and light pop, but I think we did the “power punk” (or whatever you want to call it) the best. Hence, you see the results of what I was really going for on Gut Level Music, When You’re a Rebel had hints of it as did Against the Grain. By the time we recorded Forever Mercy we had kind of strayed from our original sound – bad move.

Our first bass player came as a recommendation from Undercover, he stayed with us for about 2 years until Ric joined the band – that change improved the band greatly. Steve auditioned for the group in May of 1982 – he was a real good fit.

We played our first gig at First Baptist church in Fullerton in July of 1983. I have some great photos from that gig. We were well received. After that first performance the band sort of took off and we played anywhere and everywhere, about 10 times a month… I suppose the rest is history (With a small h).

Out of curiosity, how did you become a believer?

In 1980 I decided that I needed a Savior. I was never a drug addict or alcoholic or into stuff like that. I definitely had my issues, and still do, but I just came to a point where I knew there was a God and that it would be better if I started working out my faith “in fear and trembling.” I know, not as exciting as some people’s testimony but I bet mine is more the norm. I think we often give more credence to those that came from the gutter, rather than rejoicing in the fact that any conversion really is a miracle.

Why was straying from the ‘original sound’ a bad move in your opinion? Do you think that you lost fans, etc.?

Growing up I always enjoyed those bands that tried new things or altered their sound a bit – the best example is the Beatles. But the Altar Boys are not even close to the Beatles, but we sought to be a little more melodic on Mercy. But our fan base loved the hard driving stuff. With that said, the Mercy project was just so different, it had its good moments but everyone wanted to hear Gut Level Music. In the end, the music did not “work” very well in the live setting. Hence we pulled mostly from our older material – even at our reunion concerts the only song we did from Mercy was “Forever Mercy.” Ric and I have often talked about Mercy and what were trying to do, and kind of where we went wrong. Yet, some people love Mercy and it is their favorite recording – so what do I know? We were hoping to do a 6th record called No Substitute that really was basically more in line with Gut Level Music, but we just could not seem to get back into the studio. Some of those songs were used on the Clash of Symbol’s first recording while others are not going anywhere.

Being one of the forerunners in the scene, what type of obstacles did you encounter and have to overcome as a band?

We really did not have a huge amount of obstacles. Most people were very gracious to us. I think one thing that did bother us a bit was the fact that some churches would host our band and used our popularity to bring in kids to their church – not a bad thing – but we would play for 20 minutes while they gave a 30 minute sermon. That wasn’t every church mind you, but I kind of felt like that was a little deceitful. In essence the kids didn’t get a concert by The Altar Boys, but were duped into coming to hear a Bible study that we happened to played at – and it was not advertised that way. Bible Studies are great, but I always felt that if a person took their time out – and maybe paid money – to hear us, then we should make it worth their effort. All in all, that really irritated me and the guys, and try as we may, it was difficult to communicate that to our hosts. Again, I am all for communicating the Good News of Christ, but let’s not do it in such a way that the message is hindered by our actions, and let’s do it in a way that it shows respect and love to others. Some of these churches even admitted that we were simply bait, at first I was okay with that, but gradually I realized that this type of attitude really wasn’t an accurate or a fair assessment of our ministry. Again, this did not occur at every church we played at and some bands have no problem with this type of arrangement, but it did happen from time to time and I just am of the opinion that we can all do a bit better when it comes to the way we evangelize.

When you look back on the years of The Altar Boys, what is it that comes to mind? How do you think that your band marked/impacted the scene?

When I look back, I always tell people that I wished I would have done two things differently: Enjoyed it more and trusted God during the difficult times. Without going into detail, I think I let some things really “get to me.” Sometimes the pressure on us really was overwhelming. We put ourselves into a position that required so much effort, planning and energy. We had very little tour support and most of the details were really left to us to figure out – most of the time the responsibility was on me to workout the details… to the point that it often distracted me from focusing on what I was really supposed to do (play music and do ministry). At one point the guys even came to me and said “Man, you just seem to be so scatter brained.” They were just concerned, but I already I knew that I wasn’t on top of things. I was just so distracted by all that I had to do to keep this “machine” going. That isn’t to say that Ric, and particularly Jeff, didn’t do “their” part, it just kind of wound up that a lot of things were on my shoulders. We did go through a number of managers, and we sought help, but there was still a lot gaps that had to be filled in and I had to do it. Be that as it may, God was faithful even when I wasn’t, and His hand was always on us… always! I am not sure what impact we had, I suppose we were pioneers in some ways, but in all fairness I think guys like Undercover and The Lifesavors really were the catalyst that got us going. Without them I do not Think Altar Boys would have happened like it did.

How did the decision come about to do your solo albums?

In 1987 and 1988 I had written a number of songs that I knew would not fit on an Altar Boys record. I approached Frontline about doing a solo project, and they agreed to sign me up – it was a nice outlet, and it also put more coins into their pocket. Nevertheless, I put together a great band – Tim Chandler / bass, Dave Raven / Drums, and Rob Watson produced it – everything really fell into place, it was really an enjoyable record and I think it came out well. In 1990 I decided to do another recording – again, I did not consider these songs to be in the vein of the Altar Boys. We were going to hire Rob again but Rick Elias kind of worked his way in and won me over. Not as enjoyable of a record. Rick did a good job on many things, so I am not dissing his production ability, but there was some tension during the project that was non existent on the Stand Alone record. We used “his” band for the project and while they were very good, and rose to the occasion, it was obvious that they were “Rick’s band.” In the end I do believe Simple Expression came out equally as well as Do I Stand Alone and it was the last project I did with Frontline. Both solo projects were very different, but I look back at them fondly…. I think in many ways maybe Simple Expression might be just a little better…. but Stand Alone has some stronger moments if that makes any sense.

Are there any future plans for the Altar Boys?

Funny you should ask that question. I’ve just started up a rockabilly version of the Altar Boys called The Altar Billies. It really wasn’t my idea, for the past 7 years I have been hanging with this guy named Johnny X. Johnny plays drums, guitar, and upright. At one point he mentioned to me that he thought a lot of my music could be done in the rockabilly style and format. He even did a demo of Against The Grain and won me over. However, for the past few years I have been working on a master’s degree and second teaching credentials so I have been basically been “dead in the water.” To make a long story short, the Altar Billies is up and going and it is wonderful…. the guys are great and more importantly I get to play the songs again and my “ole Tele.” Since we are all dads, have families and careers, I am not sure about touring and the like, we’ll just take it as it comes. In the mean time, it is great to do ministry in this format

What do you think about the digital revolution when it comes to music in this day and age?

I think the digital revolution is great. I mean now bands do not have to go though record companies to get their songs out there. With MySpace and you tube one can get access to the entire world. Also, it is now possible to record a great demo or entire project right at home on your computer. The Altar Billies did an incredible demo on Garage Band. That program is kind of considered low budget by most people, but our demo sounds great. So no longer do you have to go into a studio to get a good product. If one takes their time they can do something really great that is close to, or equally as good in quality as, almost any studio.

Any plans to record with the Altar Billies, or any music that will be released for sale?

Anything really is possible and I think we will do some recording. I plan to get a Pro Tools set up (just LE). That first demo I did on Garage Band and I think it sounds pretty good actually! Tonebox Records distributes most of the Altar Boys music on the net (iTunes etc…..). So, any Altar Billies project will most likely be made available for download through them. It could possible include the three songs that one can hear on The Altar Billies MySpace page (“Against the Grain,” “Listen Up,” and “Live”). I have several unreleased Altar Boys recordings and other material that may finally see the light of day including a favorite instrumental I wrote in 1989 called “Altar Boys Go Skating.” We have renamed it “Hayride Billies”, sped it up to a fast bluegrass pace and put a twang to it, and it’s a good’n! There are many other songs as well, the sky really is the limit with these guys. Johnny X and Chris “Cowbell” are excited about the “Billies” and are looking forward to putting as much time as they can into this project (balanced with family, job, and church commitments).

What would you say to any new bands starting out?

Funny you should ask that, I have made mention of this very thing in several of my blogs and in my dealing with different Christian artists I have met – including one that just came though our church today. But in short I would encourage them to protect their hearts, and to “enjoy” it. The evil one will do everything he can to bring you down, I think he especially targets Christians who are musicians because he was once “in charge” of leading the angels in worship before the Lord God. So I suppose he really has it out for those of us that are engaged in this act of worship, because he cannot stand to see all of the praise, honor and glory go to the Lord.

Do you still merchandise for sale?

We still have a number of When Your a Rebel, Full Circle, Simple Expression, and Sunday Is An All Together Different Proposition CD’s. The thing is that most of the Altar Boys, Clash of Symbols, and my solo material is available for download through iTunes and other sites. However it looks like CD’s will become obsolete very soon, who would have thought? So, what technology will they come up with that will dethrone iTunes and Napster?  It really is an unbelievable time that we are living in, so many great opportunities for musicians, but there was a charm about the old days when the album covers were as important as the music. Then again that was then and I suppose that now it all has charm of its own. As a matter of fact, my son insists on having a “cover flow” for every song on his iPod. He seems to get it… I guess he’s a lot like his old man!

www.altarboys.com
www.myspace.com/altarbillies
www.myspace.com/altarboysmusic
www.mikestand.net

Thanks again to Mike for taking the time to do this interview with me! I’m sure you readers are wondering what the other members of the Altar Boys are up to now, so below is a little update section!

JEFF CRANDALL

“Currently, I am the Worship Pastor at High Desert Church in Victorville, CA.  Jenny and I now have three children, Ben 8 years old, Ryan 4 and Sam 2.  I graduated from the International School of Theology in 1994 with a Masters of Pastoral Studies Certificate.

God has taught me a lot since The Boys stopped playing together.  I’ve learned a great deal about marriage and relationships.  Over the years, my worship and musical experience in Christ has literally been transformed.   I’ve learned so many new things that unfortunately the limited space in this newsletter does not allow me to elaborate. Once again, I want to thank you for all the support you gave us throughout the years.  Many of you have continually prayed for us, and encouraged us in so many ways.  Always remember that ‘You Are Loved.’”

STEVE PANNIER

“Hello everyone!  A lot of changes have happened in my life since I stopped playing with the Altar Boys.  My family and I lived in Nashville and Oregon for a season before settling right back here in sunny Southern California.  Perhaps the biggest change of all has been the addition of my now 8 year old son Sean and 3 year old Hailey.  They are the ‘apple’ of my eye.

Since coming back to California I’ve been blessed with a very successful landscape business.  It’s great to be working outdoors as a landscaper. Love the Lord and remember, there’s no substitute for volume.”

MARK ROBERTSON

“I first saw the Boys in about ’84 or ‘85. I had only been a Christian for a couple years and was excited to find that you could be a believer and still play good music! I remember a friend telling me ‘These guys are great, you should start a band like this.’ I said, ‘No, I should be in this band!’ I became an Altar Boy in August 1990 and stayed ‘til August 1991. It was a year that I will always remember as one of the major highlights of my career.

I felt strongly that God was leading me away from Southern Cal, so I packed up and moved to Chicago. I briefly joined a band called The Stand, then took over bass duties for Rick Elias. I also sing for my own band This Train, which is now signed and taking up most of my time. I also began producing records. I’ve produced about 15 or so by now, which is a whole lot of fun. I also had the great privilege of playing for 4 years with Rich Mullins, who became a close friend and mentor to me. He taught me a lot about music, got me involved in Native American missions, and helped me become a stronger Christian.

Perhaps the greatest happening is my recent marriage to Janel.  The only way to describe her is: what a woman.  She’s all I’ve ever wanted and more.”

RIC ALBA

After recording his Holes in the Floor of Heaven album, Ric has been dedicated to finishing school. He is working on his degree in social work and spends most of his time working with organizations in the fight against AIDS. He also has a side project called ‘Chef’s Hat Boxing’, but because of his current schedule the band only gigs once a month.