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In the last issue we caught up with Allan Aguirre<\/a><\/strong> and found out about his band Men as Trees Walking. Because of the nature of the conversation and the depth of what we were discussing, I thought it would be cool to do a follow up interview and talk about things of an even more Biblical nature. We have always tried to maintain a certain distance from establishing any type of theological persuasion in these pages because there are so many people who see things so differently. Having said that, this isn\u2019t us trying to argue a theology or a persuasion, I just wanted to ask more questions about Men as Trees Walking because this is what Allan calls a \u201cprophetic\u201d ministry and I found the scriptural definition of this to be pretty relevant to the music. I thought that our readers would also hopefully enjoy reading about what Aguirre is committed to and what he believes as it relates to scripture, to his music and to his passions. One other thing, I asked Allan if I could grab a couple of pictures from his Facebook page, I don\u2019t know who took these but would like to give credit where it is due if the photographer would like to contact us. I thought these images were pretty amazing!<\/p>\n With such a heavy emphasis on prophecy and the prophetic and the OT scripturally, how do you see that fits in with the NT?<\/strong><\/p>\n It fits in very nicely, in fact. First off we need to realize that the NT should never have been propagated as \u201cnew\u201d; \u201cnew\u201d as in \u201cseparate\u201d or \u201creplace\u201d. The vast majority of Christianity has been taught for centuries to believe and to approach their walks and the study of the Word in this way: a separation between Old and New – as if the OT was another Covenant \u2013 the covenant for the Jews, exclusively – and the NT, the covenant for Christians, Jew or Gentile, exclusively \u2013 a separate Covenant. Nothing could be further from the truth! I know we generally get \u201cNew Testament\u201d and \u201cNew Covenant\u201d from Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20 but the Greek transliterated word used for \u201cnew\u201d, kainos, in the Strongs (#2537) means \u201cas respects form: recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn – as respects substance: of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon\u201d. There\u2019s no mention of \u201cseparate\u201d or \u201creplaced\u201d. One translation has “This cup is the New Covenant, ratified <\/em><\/strong>by my blood, which is being poured out for you.\u201d (emphasis mine) Ratified (verb) sign or give formal consent to (a treaty, contract, or agreement), making it officially valid. I love that.<\/p>\n This \u201cnew\u201d Covenant is a continued covenant – entirely and absolutely rooted and established in the \u201cold\u201d Covenant. This is a huge revelation. There is <\/em><\/strong>no \u201cnew\u201d Covenant without the \u201cold\u201d to base the \u201cnew,\u201d continued covenant, on. Another point, which I find mind boggling that most people don\u2019t understand or apply to this is that the writers of the NT based everything they wrote, everything they believed and everything they understood on what Jesus spoke and modeled and the Tanakh (5 Books of Moses, The Prophets and The Psalms = The OT). There was no NT.<\/p>\n When the NT says \u201cword\u201d or \u201cscripture(s)\u201d it\u2019s exclusively referring to the Tanakh \u2013 the Scriptures \u2013 not the 66-book compilation we call the Bible. It wouldn\u2019t exist in this form for 300+ years from the last dated writing of the NT. I know this may sound silly, but I can\u2019t tell you how many Christians actually believe that the NT is referencing the Bible. It\u2019s ludicrous! So again, this whole thing is based and founded on the OT exclusively. I have heard it suggested that the NT is something like 70% OT re-quoted or paraphrased. A lot of our NT one liners are actually re-quotes from the OT. So in regards to your question, how does prophecy, the prophetic and the OT fit in to the NT, it fits very naturally, actually.<\/p>\n The entire content of the NT is prophesied in the OT:<\/p>\n The Gospels:<\/strong><\/p>\n Acts:<\/strong><\/p>\n I’m not disputing the validity of the prophetic, just curious to your view of how it relates today if the Spirit is available to all men, and therefore communicates with everyone?<\/strong><\/p>\n I believe that the Spirit is available to all men today – in the exact manner and with the exact power and manifestations we read about in both the OT and NT. I believe that that same Spirit desires <\/em><\/strong>to communicate with everyone today, as He did then, but in the same way that that communication was entirely dependent on the Human then, that communication is entirely dependent on the human today. The Spirit could be \u201ccommunicating,\u201d but that human may not have the ability to hear, see or discern that communication. I also see, in scripture and in real life today, that this communication, manifestation and power are contingent on our sowing into that level of relationship. If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow \u2013 and if the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead, the same Spirit that dwelt in Peter and Paul, dwells in me, and Peter\u2019s shadow could heal the sick and both Peter and Paul could raise the dead, then so can I – and I\u2019m not raising the dead and my shadow doesn\u2019t heal the sick. What\u2019s changed? Not God. Not His Spirit. We have.<\/p>\n I do obviously not believe this thing as much as those two did nor am I sowing into this thing as much as they both did because the same result is available to me today. Jesus empowered the disciples over sickness, unclean and evil spirits and death pre-Pentecost<\/em><\/strong>. He also declared, pre-Pentecost, that His followers would speak in tongues, heal the sick, cast out demons and raise the dead. I see these as the \u201cbundled\u201d gifts that come with salvation, if you will. \u201cEarnestly desire the best gifts,\u201d Paul writes. \u201cDo we all prophesy? Do we all speak in tongues,\u201d etc., he continues. \u201cNo,\u201d was his answer. In Corinthians Paul states that he wished we all prophesied and spoke in tongues. In Ephesians he writes, \u201cHe made some <\/em>prophets.\u201d Being a prophet and being prophetic are 2 different things. But what\u2019s the real problem? The real problem is the vast majority of Christianity doesn\u2019t believe any of this is \u201cfor us today.\u201d That\u2019s going to really hinder the Spirit! After revealing Himself to the synagogue in Nazareth, Jesus was unable to do many miracles that day because of their unbelief<\/em><\/strong>. This is Jesus we\u2019re talking about! How does unbelief render us <\/em><\/strong>impotent to the power and depth of revelation of God? Isn\u2019t this the same Jesus that spent most nights during His public ministry in the mountains praying and fasting? What does that tell us? The majorities of Christians I encounter don\u2019t fast, let alone live a life of prayer. I believe the same Holy Spirit found in both the OT and the NT is available to us today and that the same desire He had to communicate with man in the OT and NT is His same desire today.<\/p>\n Do you still see that the same rules apply to today\u2019s prophets as it did in the bible?<\/strong><\/p>\n Yes. God has no shadow of turning and is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.<\/p>\n Just the term “prophetic” carries a huge amount of weight, what are the implications if you “hear” wrong?<\/strong><\/p>\n I absolutely agree. It\u2019s not anything to be taken lightly. Paul wrote that we know and prophesy in part. He also wrote, \u201clet us prophesy in proportion to our faith.\u201d As in anything, it takes practice – practice to grow our faith and our gifting \/ abilities. I think Christians so remove the biblical text from practical common sense that the idea of a \u201cschool\u201d to learn this stuff isn\u2019t a concept easily grasped. We know Paul taught in such a school for two years (Acts). These things have to be modeled in discipleship. That discipling is going to involve trial and error.<\/p>\n You\u2019re asking me \u201cwhat are the implications if you \u2018hear\u2019 wrong\u201d. The implications are twofold:<\/p>\n To the hearer, it can be disastrous. This is where spiritual discernment and the testing \/ judging of spirits is crucial. This also stresses the absolute need for discipleship and a firm biblical foundation. If the hearer is new to the dynamic of the prophetic or just new to Christianity, this is where the discipler or \u201cmentor\u201d comes in handy. Unfortunately, many know little to nothing about spiritual discernment or the testing of spirits, and actual discipleship is a rarity in the church, let alone the discipleship of spiritual gifts. It\u2019s impossible to model something you don\u2019t believe in or don\u2019t know. This is a travesty and the norm within the church, which leads us to the giver of prophetic words.<\/p>\n To the giver, it can be disastrous. We\u2019ve all seen it. It\u2019s caused many to renounce or discredit the subject matter. It\u2019s at epidemic proportions today and not without merit. Just because they say they are prophets or prophetic doesn\u2019t mean that they are. If they are then they have the responsibility to hone their gifting in private so as not to fall into the \u201cfalse prophet\u201d category. Or, prophesy within the context of the biblical teaching on the matter. Gee, what a concept. We are extremely careful to call anything we say or do \u201cprophetic\u201d. Paul wrote, \u201cLet two or three prophets speak, while the others weigh what is said. And if something is revealed to a prophet who is sitting down, let the first one be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, with the result that all will learn something and all will be encouraged. Also, the prophets’ spirits are under the prophets’ control; for God is not a God of unruliness but of shalom. If anyone thinks he is a prophet or is endowed with the Spirit, let him acknowledge that what I am writing you is a command of the Lord. But if someone doesn’t recognize this, then let him remain unrecognized. So, my brothers, eagerly seek to prophesy; and do not forbid speaking in tongues; but let all things be done in a proper and orderly way.\u201d (1 Corinthians 14:29-33a, 37-40) This is real instruction on the subject and we are, thankfully, under this type of scrutiny, covering, council and accountability by other prophets and\/or prophetic people. Like I said, we take this subject seriously and it\u2019s not one we want to be lazy or careless about.<\/p>\n I think this would be a great place to continue with Paul on this matter, \u201cBrothers, don’t be children in your thinking. In evil, be like infants; but in your thinking, be grown-up. In the Torah it is written, \u2018By other tongues, by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people. But even then they will not listen to me,\u2019 says ADONAI. Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. So if the whole congregation comes together with everybody speaking in tongues, and uninstructed people or unbelievers come in, won’t they say you’re crazy? But if you all prophesy, and some unbeliever or uninstructed person enters, he is convicted of sin by all, he is brought under judgment by all, and the secrets of his heart are laid bare; so he falls on his face and worships God, saying, \u2018God is really here among you!\u2019\u201d (Acts 14: 20-25) Isn\u2019t that beautiful?<\/p>\n In the first interview you said, “This means that if God doesn\u2019t show up when we play, if the Spirit doesn\u2019t manifest in some form, be it healing, salvation, deliverance, word of knowledge; if we don\u2019t \u201cprovoke\u201d or provide the atmosphere for an intersection between the King of the Universe and the people \u201clistening\u201d when we play, then something is\/went wrong.” Do you believe that God \u201cshowing up” is only proved by an action like one of these manifestations that you mentioned?<\/strong><\/p>\n Great question and a tricky one; tricky because it can \u201cpigeon hole\u201d me but great because I think it\u2019s important to really \u201cknow\u201d what \u201cGod looks like\u201d in our physical realm. Just based on the verses above we see the value of a prophetic manifestation in revealing the reality of God in an individual\u2019s life. A large majority of the time we\u2019re<\/p>\n seeing this occurring in the lives of believers as well; being \u201c\u2026convicted of sin by all,\u2026 brought under judgment by all, and the secrets of his heart are laid bare; so he falls on his face and worships God, saying, \u2018God is really here among you!\u2019\u201d The manifestation of God, the super<\/em>natural in the natural (which is still natural, by the way, it\u2019s just super) has always had an impact on homosapiens, good or bad. That \u201cmanifestation\u201d can be a still small voice but there are more instances in the biblical text where His manifestation was of an action best described as \u201csigns and wonders.\u201d Like Paul says, these types of manifestations provoke the response, “God is really here among you!” That comes in pretty handy when you\u2019re doing what you\u2019re doing. Heh\u2026<\/p>\n Can you explain what the “whosoever” movement is?<\/strong><\/p>\n The best way to describe it is by letting them describe it. Go to thewhosoevers.com\/about<\/a><\/strong>. Also, check out their mini documentary<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n
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