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Mike Roe is one of those guys who we don\u2019t really need to introduce. You know him, you know his band The 77\u2019s, and surely those who enjoy his music know about The Lost Dogs too. Another great project that he is involved in is Kerosene Halo with Derri Daugherty from The Choir. Their first release was spectacular \u2013 so make sure you scoop that up if you haven\u2019t already. There will be new music from Kerosene Halo in the future, so stay tuned and plugged in. Mike has been actively involved in the music scene for probably just over 30 years now. His output has been significant \u2013 not to mention he is highly regarded as a very accomplished guitar player by both fans and peers alike. This interview was a great opportunity for us here at Down the Line to catch up with Mike and talk about a few things\u2026 but most of all to ask some questions regarding the much anticipated re-release of The 77\u2019s highly regarded Sticks and Stones<\/em> album.<\/p>\n For me, Sticks<\/em> was my introduction to The 77\u2019s. I remember buying it off the shelf at a local bookstore based completely on the cover artwork and the name of the band. Seriously, that was my discerning criteria to purchase albums at that time. Obviously, it panned out pretty good because Sticks<\/em> made me a permanent fan of the Sevens. It introduced me to Aaron Smith who became one of my favorite drummers, as well as granting me access to a band that has progressed through the years and left their mark on so many people. The 77\u2019s are amazing. Enjoy the lengthy interview below as Mr. Roe dishes on some history, the upcoming tour and the (just days away) release of the re-issue of Sticks and Stones<\/em>.<\/p>\n What made Sticks and Stones<\/em> the go to album for a reissue?<\/strong><\/p>\n We\u2019ve already been reissuing the back catalog gradually through iTunes and other digital outlets. Our fans have been gravitating towards digital more and more recently.\u00a0 It didn\u2019t happen all at once but this seems to be the direction it\u2019s been heading.\u00a0 For years we\u2019ve been frustrated by having most of our albums out of print, but the difficult part is that it costs a thousand dollars or more just to press 1000 copies.\u00a0 In the old days you could move those pretty quickly, but these days with the music business being what it is, that could take 2 to 3 years or more to sell. So the investment becomes long-term and that\u2019s kinda tough when you need cash right away.\u00a0 It makes it hard to get all of the music out there and keep it out there. So we decided to start doing a digital campaign with the reissues, and once we started doing that online, it has become easier and more cost effective to release hard copies in more limited runs.<\/p>\n I like the way this has all been going. It reminds me of when CDs first came out and everyone started digging deep into their vaults and finding all this unreleased stuff.\u00a0 It feels like we\u2019re in a similar revolution 25 years later.\u00a0 So for people like us who are doing it off the radar with a small fan base, this is the way to go.\u00a0 It has also been a lot of fun because doing the reissues gives us themes for tours. Usually if you just go out on tour and you don\u2019t have a theme, people aren\u2019t as excited as they would be if you were touring around something. The fans really enjoy some sort of concept, so this gives us that as well.<\/p>\n So with Sticks<\/em> getting the reissue treatment, does that mean re-mastered songs, new artwork, new tracks — the whole ball of wax?<\/strong><\/p>\n Yep! Sticks<\/em> wasn\u2019t mastered well originally and we really wanted the opportunity to upgrade it sonically. Then we thought we should start digging around and see if there might be some things from around that time that never came out.\u00a0 Sometimes when you look for unreleased material you don\u2019t come up with much, but in this case we found a lot of really good stuff. We have studio demos, live cuts, etc. I\u2019m sure the fans of Sticks and Stones<\/em> will really enjoy all the bonus material.\u00a0 There will probably also be additional \u2018download only\u2019 tracks that we offer.<\/p>\n So this will be released digitally and on hardcopy?<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, it will be released on both. As far as the tour goes, this is kind of a reunion of the \u2018It\u2019s For You\u2019 tour that I did with David Leonhardt 15 years ago.\u00a0 We haven\u2019t gone out as a duo in a long time. It will be fun. We\u2019ll be playing a lot of the songs from the Sticks<\/em> era as well as other fan favorites.<\/p>\n The last time we played together was four years ago during the Holy Ghost Building<\/em> tour.<\/p>\n Ah, that\u2019s right, I saw you guys on opening night of that tour.<\/strong><\/p>\n The first half of that tour was horrible. I brought a guitar out on the road that I hadn\u2019t been using for many years, and that guitar just would not stay in tune. It was really frustrating, so I called Derri and he let me borrow his Stratocaster, and once I got that it was fine.\u00a0 That first show that we played was in Marietta with Green Bracelet was pretty good. It all seemed to go downhill from there until I got Derri\u2019s guitar.\u00a0 I remember we played \u201cRiders on the Storm\u201d that night. It was a pretty good show.<\/p>\n Are you guys going to play Sticks<\/em> in its entirety on the tour?<\/strong><\/p>\n We\u2019re going to try to do as much of Sticks and Stones<\/em> as we can, but as just a duo I doubt we could pull off songs like \u2018The Loop\u2019.\u00a0 It may not sound exactly like it did on the record but we\u2019re talking about different ways that we can present the tunes.\u00a0 It will be fun to go through as much of it as we can and maybe also pull out songs from around the era a few years afterward when David joined the group.<\/p>\n So is the reissue coming out when you start the tour?<\/strong><\/p>\n Yes.\u00a0 We will have it with us on the first gig and every gig thereafter.<\/p>\n So where will this tour play?<\/strong><\/p>\n We\u2019ll be going through the Midwest, South and East Coast.\u00a0 There has been a lot of interest on the West Coast too so we might do that later in the year.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to play Cornerstone and I think we\u2019re going to have a couple of friends join us onstage \u2018cuz by that time there will also be a re-release of Echos \u2018o Faith<\/em>. That means a lot of the long lost fan favorite stuff is coming out again this year.\u00a0 With Sticks<\/em> there will be expanded artwork, a bunch of unreleased photographs and probably about three discs worth of songs altogether.<\/p>\n With Sticks and Stones<\/em> apparently there were two different versions that were originally released?<\/strong><\/p>\n There was the Broken Records version, and there was the Sparks Records version, which was an import that was released in the Netherlands, Europe and in England.\u00a0 The difference was that the import had some songs that were mastered a little better, and they also used a different mix of the song \u2018You Walked into the Room\u2019 which we had given to them.\u00a0 They were a little worried about using songs from the Island album (which was the third album called 77\u2019s<\/em>), so we let them use studio tracks from More Miserable Than You\u2019ll Ever Be<\/em> which was released through Randy Layton and Alternative Records.\u00a0 So we\u2019re going to put the alternate mix of \u2018You Walked into the Room\u2019 on this reissue of Sticks and Stones<\/em>.\u00a0 That way the fans that have always wondered about it will be able to finally hear the original mix.<\/p>\n I bet that Sparks Records version is hard to find?<\/strong><\/p>\n It pops up every once in awhile but very rarely. I made sure to get my copy back in the day.<\/p>\n Sticks and Stones<\/em><\/strong> was originally a compilation of demos.\u00a0 Did you go back and change the arrangements on any of the songs, or is everything in the original form as it was originally released?<\/strong><\/p>\n No, we didn\u2019t change anything. The original disc will still be the original disc, just sonically improved.\u00a0 I wanted the songs to be in the same order and I wanted it to be the same album.\u00a0 The bonus discs will have the alternate track that we just talked about, as well as a bunch of Mark Tootle songs that never saw the light of day.\u00a0 I\u2019m excited about that because Mark was such an amazing writer.\u00a0 We performed these tunes on stage and recorded demos of them but they were never released. One of the songs I had not even thought about in over 30 years.<\/p>\n I also found a stellar live recording of \u2018Nowhere Else\u2019, which was really exciting.\u00a0 Rediscovering all these lost recordings has been interesting. I got a bunch of tapes from Jan Eric out of his personal collection, plus our old sound man Shalom Aberle submitted a bunch of tapes, and then stuff just started coming from everywhere.\u00a0 It\u2019s amazing hearing all these tracks so many years later. Even some of the songs that weren\u2019t recorded well have more of a magical feel to them than some of the high fidelity stuff.\u00a0 There\u2019s this one version of \u2018You Don\u2019t Scare Me\u2019 that just takes my face off, but the recording was so bad and there was so much feedback, but I just played this ripping lead and thought \u201cWow, was that really me?\u201d<\/p>\n I know for me as a fan, I really enjoy the low fidelity stuff, the live tracks, and the bootlegs. Even though they\u2019re not always as crisp and clear, I think the heart of the music really comes through.\u00a0 I think a lot of the fans really like that kind of stuff.<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, for me it is the same way, but we have to be careful.\u00a0 There are so many bonus discs out there where the extra tracks make you feel horrible and you never want to listen a second time.\u00a0 For me the phrase I always use is, is it imminently playable?\u00a0 In other words, can it be listened to time and time again and still deliver that magical feeling?\u00a0 It\u2019s like when U2 recorded the Joshua Tree album, I remember Bono saying that they recorded two albums worth of material and at the time he wasn\u2019t quite sure which one they were going to use.\u00a0 I\u2019m glad they went with the one they did because it was right for the times. \u00a0Then as singles from the album started coming out, I found myself returning to those B side tracks like Spanish Eyes time and time again because they didn\u2019t get overplayed.\u00a0 That\u2019s the kind of stuff that the hardcore fans really like.\u00a0 Those tracks help to build the mythology and keep a band going.\u00a0 But again, it has to come off a certain way, otherwise it\u2019s just garbage.\u00a0 I don\u2019t like people going through my garbage (laughter)<\/p>\n So some of the tracks on the bonus disc don\u2019t just come from the Sticks and Stones<\/em> time, so what time period do the tracks cover?<\/strong><\/p>\n Some of the songs on the bonus disc predate Sticks and Stones<\/em> by as many as five years. Then we have some tracks that are live and some that were cut two years after Sticks<\/em>, so the bonus disc spans a wide amount of time. In spite of the wide variety of songs spread over so many years, everything is still fairly cohesive.<\/p>\n Since all the songs are from that era, that means Jan, Mark and Aaron will be on all these tracks?<\/strong><\/p>\n Yes, that was the rule.\u00a0 It had to have the four original members, or have Mark Proctor, who was the original drummer.\u00a0 I wanted it to be the original version of the band and not start getting into the next version of the 77\u2019s because then the scene changed and it became a different group with a different sound.\u00a0 Only picking out tracks with the original members also helped us to narrow down what songs would go on the bonus discs. We had so many other recordings that we found too, so that means there\u2019s more fun stuff coming soon for the fans.<\/p>\n Yes it will. I also tried to get as many songs from Sticks<\/em> on the live tracks. I think fans of Sticks<\/em> are really going to enjoy those.\u00a0 The song \u2018This Is the Way Love Is\u2019 will kind of be the theme as there are three different versions of that tune.\u00a0 The original demo of the track where Mark Tootle is trying to sing like me is also on there.\u00a0 He wrote the song for me and then tried to mimic me singing, and I can\u2019t wait for people to hear that because that is what inspired me to sing it the way I do.\u00a0 Mark is one of my favorite musical people.\u00a0 He is an amazing player, writer, and singer and I\u2019m really grateful that I got to work with him.<\/p>\n Sticks and Stones<\/em><\/strong> was my introduction to the 77\u2019s.\u00a0 Being that it was a compilation of demos, does it ever surprise you that so many people cite that as being their favorite 77\u2019s record?<\/strong><\/p>\n No, it doesn\u2019t surprise me, and here\u2019s why: those Sticks<\/em> tracks were our best effort to try to get a record deal at the time. The idea that these were all just kind of throwaway demos was somewhat of a contrived myth that we spun for the sake of the fans so that when they heard the stuff, they would hopefully feel like it was way better than we were making it out to be, which of course it was. I was working under the radar at that time and was in the stages of trying to launch a new version of The 77s that I\u2019d formed with David Leonhardt and Mark Harmon.\u00a0 It was somewhat of a clandestine operation. \u00a0Sean Doty from Veil of Ashes had gone to Joey Taylor from Broken Records and asked that he help us out. Sean told Joey that we were getting this new group together and we had all these recordings sitting in the can waiting to be released.\u00a0 So Joey approached me and offered me this cherry deal at the time. It was financially good for us and we were also able to maintain ownership and rights of our songs.\u00a0 That was an offer that I couldn\u2019t refuse.<\/p>\n We didn\u2019t think it would be as successful as it was at the time, but I\u2019m really grateful that it was because it helped to kick the band into the next phase for another 10 years of work.\u00a0 So Sticks<\/em> really became our most popular release if you don\u2019t include albums like Ping Pong Over the Abyss<\/em>, which was a lot of folks\u2019 baptism into our band.\u00a0 I think All Fall Down<\/em> also had a similar impact, but the Island record not as much. I think part of the problem with the Island record was that it was on a secular label.\u00a0 The distribution was very limited and it was hard for people to get a copy.\u00a0 It wasn\u2019t until 1995 when it came out on CD in the 1 2 3<\/span> box set that it found a larger audience.<\/p>\n That shines a light on the evolution of the album. Sticks and Stones<\/em> is really the \u2018go to\u2019 album for me when it comes to the Seventy Sevens.<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, we were trying really hard to get known by the music biz suits in Hollywood. We played a lot of showcases for them down there.\u00a0 It was a very heady time but it was also a very scary time because we knew those guys in suits had heard it all.\u00a0 We were being pushed on the radio — Rodney Bingenheimer<\/em> from KROQ loved us, and Paul Atkinson who used to be in The Zombies (and was the A&R guy for RCA at the time) really liked the whole retro aspect of what we were doing. Paul was actually the one who came closest to signing us. Ultimately, though, everyone said the same thing, which was they just didn\u2019t hear \u201cthat one song\u201d, i.e., a hit single.\u00a0 Part of the reason that the song MT exists is because I went to Bongo Bob Smith who had his hand in all of the music business back then and I said, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to write us a hit song\u201d.\u00a0 We needed \u2018that one song\u2019.\u00a0 He had this song called \u2018More Than\u2019 (MT); he had most of the melody and chords, and I fashioned the lyrics around what he already had and I helped to shape the rest of the melody. I thought we had a good collaboration and came up with a good tune.\u00a0 It just did not work, for whatever reason; it just didn\u2019t turn out to be that hit song.\u00a0 We were poised and we were ready but no one bit.\u00a0 This was also after our stint with Island Records, which was a big blow for us as well.\u00a0 After these two big blows you become discouraged, and when you get discouraged you start behaving in ways that aren\u2019t right and that led to personal problems within the band.\u00a0 Eventually the whole thing ended in tears.\u00a0 That\u2019s part of the bittersweet aspect of it all.<\/p>\n Now that I\u2019m older and wiser and understand life a little better, I realize that we were probably looking at this whole thing wrong. We did the best that we could, but I don\u2019t think that\u2019s spiritually what was going on at the time.\u00a0 What had actually been going on all along was that these songs were having a certain type of spiritual impact upon people, changing their lives, drawing them closer to God and helping them to work out conflicts that they had or helping to comfort them through hard times.<\/p>\n What was it like for you revisiting this album?<\/strong><\/p>\n I think overall there was a sadness attached to that record because we never scored the album deal we were after. It was shortly after that, that the band just disintegrated amidst personal problems and conflict with the record company and each other.\u00a0 It was just a sad, fall-apart situation that made all of us fairly unhappy for a long time.\u00a0 So there is somewhat of a bittersweet feeling associated with it. However, over time the bitter part has mostly faded away because it was all such a long time ago.\u00a0 All those relationships have been repaired since then and what came out of the whole thing was a whole new generation of 77s fans.\u00a0 It made a lot of people happy.\u00a0 I\u2019m fortunate to be associated with an album like this.\u00a0 It shows that a lot of good stuff can happen in spite of conflict.\u00a0 I guess it\u2019s sort of a metaphor for how life works a lot of the time.\u00a0 If you can somehow find a way to work with your brother despite your differences, it seems like the reward is so much greater when it comes from that conflict; and through that cooperation there becomes something that other people can grab on to. It\u2019s kind of like the theme that runs throughout the Bible, and that theme always makes for a good story.<\/p>\n It is interesting to hear you talk about it from that perspective because I can say as a fan that the songs definitely have that impact.\u00a0 So many of the songs carry us through hard times and rough times, the songs push us into the deeper truths.\u00a0 I still remember the first time I heard \u2018God Sends Quails\u2019, or \u2018The Lust the Flesh the Eyes and the Pride of Life\u2019, and the deeper truths that were found within the songs become clearer in a spiritual way.\u00a0 I remember thinking that it was OK to feel the way that I felt, the songs reinforced the notion that \u2018this too shall pass\u2019. \u00a0For me growing up, I wasn\u2019t getting these truths in church, but I was getting it through my music.\u00a0 So I would agree that the songs definitely have a lasting impact.\u00a0 They were formative for me in helping shape my thinking.<\/strong><\/p>\n I think back to when I was 16 and going through all the typical teenage problems. I was surrounded by the greatest rock music in the history of the world. It was rock\u2019s golden age, and while the songs helped a lot, they would\u2019ve helped a little more if I felt that I had the support of my church and that the singers were doing this with a sense of being connected to God.\u00a0 We had Larry Norman, and Phil Keaggy came around later, but there weren\u2019t very many Christian singers that I respected. I think if there had been, it would have helped me and it would have blurred the dichotomy between the church and the world. Back then there wasn\u2019t a bridge between those two worlds. The 77s kind of slipped into that place where we weren\u2019t out of place in either world.\u00a0 We were relevant for your whole life and not just part of it.<\/p>\n I agree with you, but what I find odd as well were that bands like the 77\u2019s, Adam Again or Michael Knott were the bands that were bridging the two worlds, but they were the bands that were looked at as being on the fringe.<\/strong><\/p>\n We were kind of proud of the fact that a lot of Christian kids hid our records under their bed.\u00a0 It reminds me of the scripture that says \u201cdo not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind\u201d.\u00a0 I think that was a problem for us growing up because we were being taught to conform and not to just be ourselves.\u00a0 If our band, and other bands that you mentioned, were able to help people feel okay about being who they were, and who God made them to be, I think that was a very important part of growing spiritually at that age.\u00a0 If you think the only way to be pleasing to God is to be like your father or to be like the people at church, then you\u2019re going to have problems.\u00a0 Because if that isn\u2019t who you are, then what do you do?\u00a0 Stuff like that causes a lot of emotional schizophrenia, which is what I went through as a kid.\u00a0 I was grateful that the 77s were able to play maybe a small role in undoing some of that.\u00a0 I felt like maybe we were role models that kids could feel safe mimicking, without having all the drugs and other things that rock personalities seemed to promote and represent.\u00a0 You can only do this at one point in your life. \u00a0I don\u2019t even think in those terms anymore.\u00a0 It was good that we got to do that while we younger and it was relevant.\u00a0 You\u2019re concerned with those types of things at a point in your life, but as you get older you become concerned with other things.<\/p>\n Yeah I guess it\u2019s a progression\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n It is.\u00a0 At this point I\u2019ve become more concerned with whether I am being grateful, or am I being generous with my time, my gifts and my talents \u2026that kinda stuff.<\/p>\n Well, I know for your fans, your gifts and talents have gone a long way and meant a lot to us through the years\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n Gosh thanks.\u00a0 Even though we didn\u2019t get what we wanted at the time, if you\u2019re a true artist you eventually realize that it isn\u2019t about something to do with record sales or popularity or fame, but it is rather about the stuff of life.\u00a0 I found out later that maybe that\u2019s what it was all about in the first place.\u00a0 I found out that it\u2019s not about rock stardom but rather about the way the songs have impacted people\u2019s lives.\u00a0 That\u2019s why these songs are important, and that\u2019s probably why their memory has lasted. \u00a0So I was able to take away from the experience a broader vision of what this music means to me.\u00a0 Originally we wanted to wear funny haircuts, make a lot of money and be famous. There were all types of different motives — some good, some not so good.\u00a0 Some were selfish and some not so selfish. But fortunately, it\u2019s been the impact of the songs upon people who really needed them that has lasted.<\/p>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/files\/2022\/03\/guitar-hero.jpg\")
That\u2019s great! I was just trying to remember the last time you and David played together\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/files\/2022\/03\/moptop-89.jpg\")
That\u2019s cool! This will definitely be a slice of history, a definite moment in time.<\/strong><\/p>\n