{"id":955,"date":"2010-05-10T00:04:40","date_gmt":"2010-05-10T00:04:40","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/?p=955"},"modified":"2012-03-12T16:22:38","modified_gmt":"2012-03-12T16:22:38","slug":"ric-alba-extensive-interview","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/ric-alba-extensive-interview\/","title":{"rendered":"Ric Alba extensive interview"},"content":{"rendered":"
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\u201cIf there is an eternal kingdom beyond this one, filled with love and wonder, let no one feel he is hopelessly shut out from it, or being crushed under it.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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Before you begin this amazing journey of Ric\u2019s, I want to add a special word from our friend Brian Healy of Dead Artist Syndrome. Brian wrote me a letter that said, \u201cDo me one favor please? State it clearly and categorically that Ric Alba is the bass player for Dead Artist Syndrome. I need it clear he is 100% band member, friend and collaborator and not out there standing alone. I need it clear we are totally on his side.\u201d So there you go, straight from the Godfather of Goth himself. Please take the time to read this article, it has been years and years since Rick was around the scene, and we are fortunate that he has emerged to not only gift us with upcoming music, but I also believe his story is one of self discovery, honesty and healing.<\/p>\n

Was the Altar Boys the first band you were in?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I was in quite a few different bands before I landed in Altar Boys, but I was an Altar Boy the longest by far.<\/p>\n

How did you get into the band? What is the history there?<\/strong><\/p>\n

It was like growing up in a big house with lots of brothers switching rooms a lot. Me and my friend Frank had a working cover band when we started high school and I bought my first bass. When we were 18 he announced he was born again, and I started going to the home Bible study he went to. I was raised Catholic and had the core beliefs, but I never thought of a relationship with the Son of God until I met these people and saw a little of what that was like. When it really hits you that a guy bled and died for you, you start taking him pretty seriously. Knowing there was nothing I could do to make it up to him; I decided then and there that my life was his. I eventually moved into the house where we held the study. It was very like a commune.<\/p>\n

We started an acoustic band, singing and witnessing at city parks and such until Frank met Gym Nicholson and started playing drums a new band Gym had with Joey Taylor. For me that was the Big Bang that coalesced into the Christian rock\/punk-rock scene we call the 80\u2019s. They shared rehearsal space with another new band started by Chris Wimber (miss you my friend) on bass, who needed someone to play keyboards. That someone was me. After a while we all switched around and became the Lifesavors and Undercover where I played bass. Frank moved inland with a few others and formed the group, Bargain. Meanwhile the circle was widening here inOrangeCounty, and me, Chris and Kevin from the Lifesavors, and Kevin\u2019s brother Mike held living room jams that went pretty nicely, and eventually, Mike and his cousin Jeff started their band, Altar Boys, which I joined later after leaving Undercover. Short genealogy, but it came with a lot of growing pains over a short time. Voluntarily giving up my spot in Undercover was astonishingly painful and confusing.<\/p>\n

What exactly did lead you to voluntarily leaving Undercover?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

More aptly put, what the hell was I thinking? Anyway that story starts when I was in a band with Chris Wimber, and started going to his dad\u2019s new church that met at a gymnasium and eventually became the Anaheim Vineyard. I have to jump ahead for a sec, because I can\u2019t think of them without regretting not being around in the 90\u2019s enough to know I was losing Chris and John Wimber to illness. Chris and I spent a lot of time at his mom and dad\u2019s back when we were band mates, and I loved John for being open to new things he felt God was doing, but not every new thing was working for me.<\/p>\n

I ran into a real snag about a thing called the gifts of the spirit. Its things we did while laying hands on people to pray for them. One gift was a kind of one-on-one prophecy, where God tells you things to tell the person you\u2019re praying for, plus there was healing, casting out demons, and a thing called \u201cslaying in the spirit,\u201d where a person falls backward involuntarily after being tapped on the forehead. I was skeptical about some of these things, and I had no taste for exorcisms, but I was eager to get on board, to be obedient. I dove in, but nothing happened. I tried not to feel left out, but how do you not?<\/p>\n

By the time Undercover\u2019s first album was out, a common question we got was how we each knew we were called by God to use rock music to reach people. That\u2019s when I started questioning my calling, because of my dilemma over the gifts of the spirit. Folks at church would ask me for a full report if I had a show that week, eager to hear the wondrous spiritual works they hoped we were doing to people after our shows. Well, that\u2019s not what people were coming for. Back at church, I knew that to fake it, whether meaning to or not, would mock of the realness of God. So if God wanted me in on this out in the field he would have to make it happen without me pushing it, like when people push the little Ouija board thingy to give the spirits a boost. In church, people would push and push on my forehead and there I\u2019d stand while people all around me were being slain in the spirit, sometimes haulking up demons, getting up and slaying each other. Everyone was so sure about how real it was and how it was a promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit – the future of ministry. I took it to heart and thought God was relieving me of the ministry due to my skepticism, or worse, that I was never called to be in a band in the first place, which broke my heart. Joey, Gym, Bill, Danny and everybody were dumbfounded at my announcement to leave the band, and so was I. Within seconds after the last note at my last show with them I was crying out loud on Bill and Debbie\u2019s shoulders. If anyone remembers a baby crying on the lawn at Big Calvary after an outdoor Undercover show in ’81, that was me. At 21 and a half, I was such a kid, more than I knew.<\/p>\n

I retreated into a life of church activities with my best friend Bonnie, and we eventually got married. She encouraged me not to give up music, and about that time Mike Stand started calling me. Everyone agreed that my not being in a band was a mistake, and next thing I knew I was confirmed as an Altar Boy and fully restored to our big musical family, and boy did that feel great. Whether I was any more grown-up at 23 and a half I couldn\u2019t say. As for the gifts of the spirit, I still believed in them but I just let it go as a task assigned to others, while we had our own work to do and fun to have. Being an Altar Boy was loads of fun, and we kept everyone laughing when we weren\u2019t too hard at work. Most of the time we were typical Boys.<\/p>\n

What was it like, back in the day, being in one of the earliest bands in the Christian music scene?<\/strong><\/p>\n

What was unique to that time was all the unnecessary pain the more conservative types inflicted on themselves, reacting to the punk rock culture that was flooding their turf very quickly. One pastor, who was known for reaching out to the young, announced to everyone that he couldn\u2019t get behind punk rock like he did for the hippies a decade before. But by our first Cornerstone Festival, what the Jesus People in Chicago were doing with their hair and earlobes—-we knew we\u2019d always have a home there at least. And on the West coast, the hippies didn\u2019t fear the Mohawk as their pastors predicted, and before long the shears came out. We had as many detractors as supporters, but the big angry post-punk look paid off by scaring away anyone who would give undue grief to the younger ones in our care. We were very protective of them that way, and I don\u2019t feel apologetic now, because I think every advance in social progress was the result of both its peace makers and its rabble rousers. Not that Mohawks and body metal are important, but that the opposite is true—that everyone young and old is accepted regardless of what they look like or what their music sounds like. That was a common theme for our bands back then, and in my opinion, a kind of landmark amendment. Sometimes outside our shows there\u2019d be a guy or two shouting petty judgments at people about hair, clothing, or dancing, and they\u2019d meet an army of rebuke from us, for the sake of the people we felt were in our care.<\/p>\n

Another theme was that so many people came to concerts with their deepest needs, sometimes in crisis, looking for hope, advice, and practical help with serious situations. This was far more compelling work to me than the task of delivering the facts of the gospel, especially since most of the audience knew those facts and it was the speakers afterward who did that job. Our hearts\u2014well, I should speak for myself but I learned this watching my band mates – it was about being there for people, mostly younger than us but not always, but who needed a good word from someone they felt was in touch with them. That wasn\u2019t hard, because who doesn\u2019t love loving people, but when people needed help beyond what a band guy from another town can really help with, I\u2019d come home with a nagging feeling of helplessness. Not the worst thing, because it motivated me to look for better ways to help, and it reminded me that we were more than a rock show. Screw wondering if I was \u201ccalled.\u201d When there\u2019s work to be done, no one needs permission.<\/p>\n

I read the note on your Facebook page that addresses your leaving the Altar Boys and \u2018ministry\u2019\u2026 why exactly did you leave?<\/strong><\/p>\n

No short answer, because I didn\u2019t want to leave, and they didn\u2019t want me to, no doubt. I announced it right after the first tour for Forever Mercy<\/em>. The circumstances? One: I enrolled in junior college to major in psych, carrying 18 units. Two: I thought it would also give me time to do the door-banging I expected to have to do to get Holes in the Floor of Heaven<\/em> made. The Boys were supportive of the project, but our record label panned the idea the year or two before when I first showed them my demo. It turned out school was going to take up so much time and focus that I felt the rest should be devoted to strengthening my marriage. My \u201cband-guy\u201d schedule wasn\u2019t good for marriage, nor were other factors you know I\u2019m already prepared to talk about here. Anyway, in 1990 I left all other projects behind to hit the books, settle down, and maybe start a family.<\/p>\n

Why was the record label not happy with Holes<\/em>?<\/strong><\/p>\n

My timing was bad. When I called them, I think in \u201888 or \u201889 for an appointment about it, they weren\u2019t keen on the idea already because we\u2019d just recorded Against the Grain<\/em>, and they were in talks with Mike for Do I Stand Alone<\/em>. Two new solo albums aren\u2019t the best thing for a band\u2019s new album to compete with I suppose. I played them the demo, and they didn\u2019t jump for joy. \u201cTruly Helpless,\u201d \u201cLaughter,\u201d and \u201cSee You in Person\u201d weren\u2019t written yet anyway, come to think of it, so I don\u2019t blame them. But all of that was just circumstances.<\/p>\n

What was the motivating factor in wanting to do a solo album?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Boy I would have loved to have figured that out in \u201987. But the very thing that drove me was the battle inside to understand what was driving me. The answer again lies in who and what we are inside. I\u2019ll start small. I always felt at home writing songs with Mike\u2019s voice in mind, but by \u201987 I also found myself writing songs that were deeply personal, and given to more delicate arrangements. I built up quite a cassette load and the Boys called it, \u2018Ric\u2019s Solo Album.\u2019 One day I had the stones to play it for our record label. I didn\u2019t expect them to green-light it right off, but it seemed right to try anyway. When they gave me a polite but clear no, I figured Against the Grain<\/em> was just out and I was into that, so I shrugged off the side project idea for some other time and place.<\/p>\n

Looking back, my head wasn\u2019t ready. Releasing it then would have meant talking a lot about myself in public and it wouldn\u2019t have been a good thing – it wouldn\u2019t have helped people. I was only starting to treat myself with any kindness about my inner battles – barely. In order to handle those subjects in a way that would help other people like myself and not hurt them, I would need to grow bigger stones. But the songs were bringing something home to me – something completely independent of sexual orientation. It started hitting me that I felt a life-long disconnection from the rest of humanity, and that it was because I let too few people really know me. It was getting harder to bury that awareness under my work, what with whole days riding in vans, airplanes, etc, where I\u2019d get carsick from reading, and there\u2019s nothing to do but think. After you run out of ways to crack your friends up, and the tapes of Yes, Rush, and other brain candy bands wear out in your walkman, there\u2019s nothing left to give attention to but yourself.<\/p>\n

So there I was, a stranger. Not a bad guy, just a new guy who would take me some getting used to, and who I kept under lock and chain, out of sight and alone in my don\u2019t-ask-don\u2019t-tell world. My battle wasn\u2019t so cut and dried anyway. I wouldn\u2019t concede to simply regarding myself as gay. Everybody knows there\u2019s that schoolyard ordinance that no one picks the gay kid for their team. Also, the standard Christian teaching was that calling it a sexual orientation is giving a nod to sin. It was an impossible equation, discovering that what you are, is something that your articles of faith insist doesn\u2019t even exist, or it\u2019s a sin to exist. So I held fast that I was suffering from something unknown, unexplained and universally misunderstood, and that the only person who I believed did understand, who could help me understand, hadn\u2019t been seen in person for 2000 years.<\/p>\n

I never thought I was unloved. Loving and being loved, right out loud, was always plentiful in my life, but it occurred to me that by going through such a major struggle with no one knowing what it was, I wasn\u2019t letting people know me like one probably ought to for good health, and in order to really feel that connection with humanity. I saw love bombarding me from all around like so much solar wind, but because I wasn\u2019t open to people really knowing me, it was like love was bouncing off me, not quite getting in. I\u2019m sure people felt they knew me just fine, but I felt like they couldn\u2019t. I didn\u2019t think I was unique in that, but all I could say about it was that people have inner battles that make them feel lonely no matter what, and that I was having a major one. When people who love you also know you because you let them inside you – that, I believed and became hopeful, would enable me to trust love, bask in it, and do a better job of sharing it.<\/p>\n

So I had to sing out with my own voice. I re-recorded my home demo, adding \u201cTruly Helpless,\u201d \u201cSee You in Person,\u201d and \u201cLaughter,\u201d and played it out loud every chance I got. It was as transparent as I dared. Not that the lyrics have anything deliberately hidden in them, by any stretch. Thinking back now, most of them are snapshots, you know, impressions left on my mind in some kind of process of unfolding. The scenery and events are meant to illustrate internal events in my life, and I guess the life of anyone who finds himself in an imperfect world, looking for a perfect God to perfect it. They describe what it was like to be me back then, but I knew better than to think my particular situation was the only one that can produce the kinds of anxieties, wonderment, ironies, and such that I was trying to describe.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

The only hidden meaning I think I ever wrote, I took out. \u201cHold My Hand\u201d originally had a metaphor whose meaning only I knew: \u201cI stood at the gate at the final step, to gaze and gaze at the fires of hell, which seemed so nice and warm to me, but I did not go inside.\u201d It was me saying I think I\u2019m gay and we all believe it\u2019s wrong, so I\u2019m not going there. I cut it from the song and squeezed it onto the front of my bass, daring myself to be ready to answer any direct questions about it. No one asked, I guess because everyone found their own meaning in it, which every songwriter loves. A pastor actually used it as part of a little sermon. But I believe that song lyrics, no matter who directed at, are also from the writer, to the writer, and my previous advice, \u201cTell me what you mean, now, don\u2019t scream,\u201d was fast becoming, \u201cOkay yeah, scream.\u201d<\/p>\n

I think we are driven more by who and what we are, than by circumstances. Let me pontificate just for a second. I think personal transparency one to another is one of the things the world needs, but sadly, putting your heart out there on your sleeve often gets dismissed as self-importance, and we shame each other for it. This is one of the things that keeps people shy, and like the man sang, shyness may seem nice, but it can stop you from doing things in life. What I\u2019m saying is I\u2019m going to spill some of my guts all over your magazine, if that\u2019s cool. Take it as an exercise in faith and trust. I\u2019ve never quite done this before but now I have to, because my absence left good people having to guess about some things from bits and pieces of second hand data. I won\u2019t describe what misunderstandings have been out there, and I don\u2019t know what they all are. But maybe we can set it all straight. It\u2019s only fair to the people who were there.<\/p>\n

I once thought I was doing everyone a favor by staying completely out of sight, but now I think I may have been selfish, and doing this feels right. Our work as Altar Boys was possible because of people generously opening up their hearts and guts to us. How dare I not do the same, even after this long? This is only my side, by the way. This is the start of a conversation I hope to have with a lot of people. There is so much I don\u2019t know, which other people do.<\/p>\n

Ric had asked if he had permission to spill his guts, I told him, \u201cYou absolutely have my permission to spill your guts\u2026\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

I\u2019ll start with the easy stuff. Growing up gay and celibate, there was a teaching going around about what to do if you think you\u2019re gay. It said that we each have the Son of God Himself to provide a life of intimate-yet-platonic male companionship, like it was with David and Jonathan. But there\u2019s a catch – that if you need more than the platonic from anyone, that need came from sin, so Christianity has no biblical provision for it, no matter how sincerely felt. So I didn\u2019t fool around, and did a good job burying any gay sexual or romantic drive I had right out of my own sight under the intensity of my work in Christian bands. Or, I just had that small of a sex drive. That was the excuse I always gave for not acting like a normal, slobbering horn-dog about girls, but I think it had some truth to it overall. Earlier at age twenty I got counseling at church, where it was taught that homosexuality is a symptom of things that one can be healed from. After a few sessions, saying I didn\u2019t think I was quite healed, they told me to claim my healing and move on without questioning it, or even mentioning it. It seemed awfully simple, but easy for me because gay or straight, I wasn\u2019t all that strung out on the pursuit for sex, and I was eager to be a proper heterosexual in the flesh, and Jesus\u2019 lover in the spirit, so to speak.<\/p>\n

Of course even once I started questioning it all later at around 28, I stayed away from gay sex because I was married to my best friend, a girl. If our environment was a gay-friendly one we probably would have been like TV\u2019s Will and Grace. But before marriage we just knew we were into each other and wanted to share the future. We didn\u2019t try sex together until we got married on a fast wave of new marriages at church, especially in our small group that did everything together as friends, then started pairing off and marrying. I was a virgin when I married at 23. Looking back, it was like I was 16.<\/p>\n

When gay people come out young to lead healthy, happy gay lives, a lot of Christians accuse them of giving in to selfish desires. But in my 1983 Christian imperative to be the ever-so obedient one, a gay kid heroically choosing a heterosexual lifestyle like it was going to be some kind jewel in my crown, I was the one being indescribably selfish. I ruined seven plus years of her life, which was cut even shorter later by leukemia. If I could trade that crown for whatever I thought God or nature was gonna do to me for being gay, I would jump into anyone\u2019s lake of fire to give her back those years. I\u2019d give up whatever eternal rewards good little boys get, just to have spent some time with her as a friend before losing her forever. Someone please memo the apostles, to amend their epistles (or otherwise clarify) and put a stop to that kind of insane destruction.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

I agree with you that transparency in any relationship is a must… how did that factor in with you being open about your sexuality with the Altar Boys…?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I wasn\u2019t, and that seems unfair looking back, but I thought I was doing the right thing. I wish it weren\u2019t so, but the only people who knew I once went to church counseling about gayness were my counselors, my small group at church, and the other founding members of Undercover who never gave me the slightest grief about it, and treated me like the younger brother I felt I was. It created a bond between they and I that I robbed from the Altar Boys by being so opaque. I\u2019m sorry for that. But by the time I was confirmed as an Altar Boy, married no less, I truly believed on advice from my counselors that it was all behind me and that was that.<\/p>\n

As time went on and it became clear to me and my band mates that my emotional well-being was suffering from something, they simply kept encouraging me as part of the team, and quite literally held my hand through all the anxiety. I think Mike might have joked from time to time that he thought I might be gay. I think straight folks often do that when they think a friend is silently gay, in hopes to break down a wall between them and build trust. I knew I had their unconditional love, but even in all our efforts to keep our little corner of the ministry focused on people helping one another who were hurting \u2013 no matter what was hurting them \u2013 the world we worked in was still after all, the world of Christian evangelicalism, and I felt that our life\u2019s work hinged on me keeping that wall up, thinking I was doing myself, everybody, and God a favor. It was much later that I put it into words, how my opaqueness was the thing that was crippling me \u2013 stopping me from taking in the love that was all around me.<\/p>\n

The incongruity took its toll, producing nightmares, anxiety, waves of depression, and the return from younger days of a neurological thing they call sleep paralysis. It drove me to come right out to Bonnie about what was going on inside. After we talked I contacted my church\u2019s counseling center, and they put me in touch with what turned out to be a Christian in-patient clinic with different \u201ctracks,\u201d including one for fending off homosexuality. I can\u2019t believe I did that. Two things though. It was essential to get some therapy, and lots of it. The focus wasn\u2019t on how not to have gay sex, especially since I hadn\u2019t had any anyway. There were people who checked in with depression, chemical dependency, abusive relationships, etc. A big part of those programs is stress and mood management, which was good.<\/p>\n

But it wasn\u2019t all good. I was getting all this help and it was killing me that she (Bonnie) wasn\u2019t warm to getting any for herself, other than what they offered at church. Right at the beginning of my stay I was cut off from her, without notice, by someone \u2013 I never learned exactly who \u2013 who told her and not me, that we shouldn\u2019t see or talk to each other during that time and that I shouldn\u2019t come home when the program was done. When the time came I didn\u2019t immerse myself back in our church, because Bonnie was relying on that circle of support for herself, and I wanted that for her. I moved into a sober house with some others I knew from the clinic. All I could do was agonize and pray that those from whom she was seeking comfort and advice would do a good job of it. The aftercare work there was Christian oriented, as were most of my roommates, but from different schools of thought about faith. I heard different ways of thinking, and understood them \u2014 to my astonishment. But like the obedient boy I fancied myself trying to be, I was terrified by the idea of changing any of my fundamental Christian beliefs. I went straight from there to tour for Forever Mercy<\/em>, then home to Bonnie to talk about our future, and maybe a family, enroll in school, and hang up my Altar Boy robes for the last time.<\/p>\n

The prospect of going from band guy with wife-at-home, to mom and dad with kids was a reality check for both of us \u2013 that our chances were slim to none, given our situation. She hated saying so, and I hated hearing it, but I knew it was true and we called it quits for good. With no marriage, no band, and leaving all our mutual Christian friends and church to her, I went into those \u2018fires of hell that seemed so warm\u2019 \u2013 the ones I did not go inside before \u2013 then right back out again with the singe of having destroyed the gay-celibacy I had foolishly relied on for self-worth. I raced back to school and to Christian out-patient gay sex rehab counseling, and back to that sober house, going to church with my housemates. I didn\u2019t dare think about recording an album. I was sure I\u2019d screwed that for good. Later, when I went to record the vocals for the album, I was sure I had lost the person who wrote those songs. But as I sang and heard the playback, it all came flooding back and it started feeling like me again, like I was singing to myself, calling out to myself, forgiving myself for not being perfect, and forgiving humanity and the world for the same.<\/p>\n

What I had the most to repent from was all those years of holding myself up in my mind as something special for never having gay sex, because those who had, had no less right to see God in person, no less right to a hand to hold, or to dance en masse on God\u2019s shimmering sea of glass, as I ever thought I deserved for being celibate.<\/p>\n

How did you get hooked up with Steve and Derri from The Choir?<\/strong><\/p>\n

We were already buds from the road and worked together on earlier projects. By then though, I was keeping myself out of reach to everyone except my ex-wife. But there was Drew Jaya (Chef\u2019s Hat Boxing), and Bert, who were long-term fixtures in the technical crews of some of the bands, who found me and hung around. I like to think maybe Bonnie, for my sake, made sure they could contact me. Bert played my demo for Steve and Derri and arranged a meeting. If I remember it right, and I\u2019m open to rebuttal, their primary question was simply if I wanted to do it. I was prepared to say, \u201cBy the way I turned out gay\u201d but they spared me by saying, \u201cBy the way, we heard you were gay,\u201d like I\u2019d taken up an interesting new hobby. I volunteered that I was, but I was getting help and I had no plans to present myself as a gay and proud Christian singer. They nodded affirmation, though I don\u2019t remember them actually requiring any of that from me. But I\u2019m sure we all knew what the Mothership Christian industry of that time \u2013 those above the small labels, and control mainstream distribution and promotion \u2013 might have done to any of her native sons outing himself publicly with head held high, thinking he\u2019d still have a place at the big family table. I wasn\u2019t going to do that anyway, still trying to fend off my own sexuality. I knew I was interviewing for a job I already held forever, but the one who came to that meeting unsure about my qualifications because of sexual orientation, was me. It was one of those make-or-break moments that came and went for me like a gentle breeze, but it hits me to know there are meetings at other labels under that giant ship that go very differently, and people in my same situation come away feeling far worse than anything I had the stones to risk back then.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

But just after the album came out, it was suddenly a done deal as far as I could see. I couldn\u2019t go out and tour as a Christian, not in 1991. News of my sexcapade had gotten around, and I heard that some churches were pulling the album from their bookstore shelves, including my alma mater, the Anaheim Vineyard. I got a phone call from one of the lay pastors telling me to come to their offices to stand before them (their words) to declare my repentance. It struck me odd, because I knew that they knew I\u2019d gone directly back into Christian ex-gay counseling for that very purpose. What was all that when I was twenty, about claiming healing and moving on? But they said if I didn\u2019t show up I\u2019d be officially handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, (their words) so that my soul might be saved. I asked them what that meant and they said so that Satan would kill my body before my soul went too far into sin (too far for what?), and in order to grant him access to me they have to cut me cut off from the body of Christ, so I\u2019d better show up. My first impulse was to be that obedient kid again, to rush to do everything they would require of me, and win back their acceptance for that dutiful child I\u2019d been at age 21 and a half. But I stopped when I realized what that would do to him. My stones grew three sizes that day.<\/p>\n

This kid needed help, and \u2013 just like all those kids back in Altarboy land \u2013 needed a good word from someone he felt was in touch with him. That had to be me, and seven years as an Altar Boy gave me loads of practice. So I rescued that kid from thinking he was about to be handed over to people who could so arrange his early death. Nor was I going to let him believe that his God was the kind who would send an invisible monster to chase him down at the behest of his aunts and uncles in Christ. I never felt so truly helped and helpful, so unlocked, unchained, and monster-free as I felt hanging up that phone. I was taking charge of my own beliefs, clearing out the temple so to speak.<\/p>\n

If God is true, men are liars. I had to let God rule and nothing else \u2013 not the book, the church, not anything I piled onto my back after I set out to follow the Son of God, sight unseen 14 years earlier. If there\u2019s a secret world \u2013 a pure world in the heart of God \u2013 then it didn\u2019t need any of the stuff we\u2019ve tried to shove into it in our attempts to define it for each other, requiring each other\u2019s strict adherence. Not that there weren\u2019t babies in that bath water, but everyone knows how to throw out bath water without throwing out a baby. I mean like, duh.<\/p>\n

So I dove into my life, and it included dating guys. Maybe gay Christians have gotten better at explaining that by 2010, but not me, not then. So I didn\u2019t explain, and never have. There I was, queer I was, and I was getting used to it. No God in any Heaven I could imagine would subject any of his children to the bullet-dance people were making his gay kids do to reconcile themselves for everyone\u2019s approval. As far as I could guess, anyone in God\u2019s kingdom who chooses to twist his own face into a painful, ugly shape at the idea of sharing it with their gay brothers and sisters, God would just as soon let them stay in their ugly pain as long as they want to, until they learn to think better, and without any of his children having to prove a case. As if.<\/p>\n

What I never got used to though, because of the timing of my execu\u2026 I mean, excommunication\u2026 was having to walk away from the prospect of touring for Holes<\/em>. I did play here and there before it hit the stores, but it wouldn\u2019t serve anyone for me to go out under the banner of a specific world view and keep my home life \u2013 one generally condemned by that view \u2013 a secret (remember loved and<\/em> known?). Anyone who\u2019s tried can tell you, but I can only imagine what it\u2019s like to be constantly on guard against conversations where folks talk about what they did on a weekend, who you share a home with and how, etc. There\u2019d be no moral way to go out other than to keep it real, and in 1991, who in that mothership was gonna throw a party for our brand new label and her \u2018surprise-he\u2019s-gay artist\u2019? I was tempted a little to go right to the Christian mainstream saying, \u201cHere I am, your native son, let\u2019s do a tour and yeah I have a boyfriend so what,\u201d and let the sparks fly in full public view, as they should. But I didn\u2019t want to drag Glasshouse (Steve and Derri) with me into a publicized issue war against the mothership, after promising them that I had no such intention. So I just let it be. Whether those were words of wisdom is strictly up to anyone, and anything can change.<\/p>\n

My belief system re-grew with the conviction that God is a lover of truth, and therefore doesn\u2019t require us to point at that which we can\u2019t possibly be certain about, and call it a certainty at the expense of a person\u2019s well-being. A choice to impair another person\u2019s well-being on the grounds of something we can\u2019t be certain about is nothing other than a choice to impair someone, and should be met with an army of rebuke by all good people seeking to serve a good God. Given that, if we are endowed by our creator with anything, it is the freedom we each have to imagine and embrace any thought about Him, new or time-honored, that enhances one\u2019s own ability to live well and love well. This has to be far more important than picking the right name for God, the right book of scriptures, the right whatever, like trying to win a trip to Heaven on a game show where you have to guess what\u2019s behind doors and under boxes.<\/p>\n

So anyway, there I was a year later, with an amazing boyfriend, starting what has become the best part of my life. I did touch base here and there with blokes from the old crowd but I immersed myself in new things. I got very busy in school and interning at various HIV\/AIDS organizations. Drew Jaya and I started a band in L.A called, Chef\u2019s Hat Boxing, with me off the bass and having a proper go at six strings. The Human Sound (Altar Boys) was always on the set list, as well as Laughter, See You In Person, and Pretty Blue Things from Holes<\/em>. It was the Nirvana 90\u2019s and we had fun adding all that dirt and iron to the guitar work on those songs. The re-vamped \u201cLaughter\u201d made it onto our six song demo. Club audiences were a healthy mix, with boyfriend proudly holding my seat for me next to him while I was on stage with Drew and the others. It felt good not hiding anything or promoting anything other than brutal honesty and good musical composition. We haven\u2019t played in ages now, but if geography and our other careers didn\u2019t prohibit, we probably would.<\/p>\n

I saw on your Facebook page at one time that you called yourself an evangelistic agnostic\u2026. what does that mean? Do you still claim the Christian faith?<\/strong><\/p>\n

That \u201cReligious Views\u201d status was when I first signed up and I was kidding, kinda. It was at the end of a long office day, and I guess I was in a colorful mood. I\u2019ve changed it since. My showing up started with an email from and old friend from the earliest days, Jerry Davis, who played bass with Gym and Ojo when I first met them. He mentioned running into everyone through Facebook. I had to see if I couldn\u2019t find a way to integrate my estranged worlds. When I thought I got a pink slip from God at age 21 I thought I lost everything. When I came back a couple of years later as an Altar Boy, it turned out I hadn\u2019t lost anything other than the time I was apart from my brothers. Now here we are, love intact, and I don\u2019t want to lose another day. Today I don\u2019t feel cut off from any family I\u2019d ever belonged to. I have to say here that I never believed that Chris or John Wimber even knew about that phone call I got from church. If they had, they would\u2019ve checked with me personally, and heads would have rolled in full public view. Nor do I feel I have to keep love under lock and chain, or that anything will ever stop me again from drinking in the deep wonders of the Earth, the sky, or whatever we can imagine lies beyond.<\/p>\n

The coolest thing is I\u2019m finding myself back in the presence of some of my old band mates, doing this and that musically, but mostly enjoying being back in their midst, one by one. Gym, Ojo, and I are on an upcoming Dead Artist Syndrome track with Brian Healy. There\u2019s an Undercover track in process as well, waiting for me to be done with all this jabbering and fire up that bass.<\/p>\n

Okay so am I Christian today? I leave that to others to decide, because faith-group identity doesn\u2019t matter to me, and I don\u2019t think it would matter to anyone in Heaven. I thought I was an atheist for a brief time, but my skepticism won out against it. If there are those who genuinely worry about my well being and hinge it on whether I qualify for a Christian identity, I recognize that as an expression of love. If they get to know me and they see me as one of their own, then I am and can be no other. If some see me as a child of the devil, to be avoided and estranged, I regard myself their brother no less, and implore them to think things through about how to regard their brothers.<\/p>\n

In 1978 when I asked the Son of God to come into my heart and mind and to use me for his good purposes I meant it, and I meant it when I committed my life to his work. I\u2019ve never withdrawn that request, or that commitment. I would be lying though, not to say that it means different things to me now than what it meant then, but not so different as I or anyone would have thought. As Christians do, I want to see a better world. I want there to be more to existence than what we can yet see and feel. I want death to be conquered and bad guys stopped from doing bad things until badness is a thing of the past and we\u2019re all good guys. I want all good beings, seen or unseen, to be praised for the good they do, and are, and I want to be taught by them. These things aren\u2019t limited to Christianity, but I learned them as a Christian. How can I not see myself as a part of their world, and they a part of mine, whether anyone feels that way or not?<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Why is it, by your estimation, that in the world of Christendom people are so completely opposed to the idea of homosexuality? It seems that in the world we live in (inside the church), there are so many gray areas, or areas that we make allowances for, but never with homosexuality… and why is the “gay but celibate” issue so prevalent? By comparison, how many straight people in the church stay celibate, probably not many?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nearly none I\u2019m sure, especially given that every heterosexual can get a sin-free ticket out of celibacy via the sacrament of Holy matrimony. In addition to that, singles are allowed their romantic relationships, which aren\u2019t condemned despite the occasional romp in times of weakness. Then, after washing themselves in the blood they still get to feel that their love itself is applauded and blessed, all the while pointing at their gay brothers and sisters with shame just for wanting to snuggle and call one another, \u201cThe one I love.\u201d<\/p>\n

I have some ideas about why so many people have such a disproportionately painful reflex about gayness, compared to so many other items on their lists of things they think people shouldn\u2019t do. It\u2019s not just in the Christian world either, but I think the Christian name is stamped on it in the Western world because those who hold anti-gay sentiments seem to run to the Christian Bible in order to defend their reactions. The more we see them doing that, the more it indicates that they can\u2019t find a defense using reason, ethics, or common sense. Drop God\u2019s name onto something, however, and enough people will applaud it, no matter how unfair, unkind, or unreasonable. Things are changing though.<\/p>\n

Very long ago, around when I first became a Christian, a person related at a gathering how he was sharing the Gospel to someone at work that day and the guy told him how he had feelings for another guy. His response to the poor guy was, \u201cWell, that\u2019s the worst sin there is.\u201d The reaction in the room was basically, \u201cYeah that\u2019s right, you did good.\u201d I think in some of those rooms today, it might have been different. I hear much less of that kind of reflex today than back when I was immersed in that environment. There is so much less of that than I expected when I set out to reconnect, and that adds so much to this hope that progress is moving along, and we\u2019re getting over our fears, or whatever it is that\u2019s been causing these reflexes.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m no anthropologist, but I like to think we inherit reflexes like that from our ancestors, like so many of what today are our irrational fears and hypersensitivities. It may be tied to the same impulses that produce the aversion to the thought of a male desiring to take on an otherwise female role. From deep into history men spent so much time and energy establishing them selves as worthy to be called a man. Perhaps people deep inside feel that gay guys are mocking that whole process \u2013 the whole institution of manliness \u2013 simply by taking on the \u2018female role\u2019 of making love to a man. I imagine that fierce imperative for manliness was necessary for the survival of groups of our ancestors during very lean times in history. I haven\u2019t done all the science on that, but I like thinking along those lines anyway because it helps me be less judgmental of others for their irrational gut reactions, knowing I have my own that I have to get over in order to help me live and love better here in 2010.<\/p>\n

Have I conquered any of my own? I mentioned a time when I was first writing songs for Holes<\/em>, that I was just barely starting to show some grace toward my self about the prospect of even just recognizing my own gayness. So now, while defending people against that unkindness, at the same time I have to forgive people for having that reflex, in order to forgive myself for once having almost the same one even though I was my worst victim (I can only hope). Maybe the principle behind, \u201cForgive us our sins, as we forgive those\u2026.\u201d works in multiple directions. I think we\u2019re all on our way, and that we won\u2019t always have to create these distinct ideological communities based on differing thoughts on God and Society, where a person thinks he has to choose one to be loyal to, disavowing all others, and thus the people in them. And in between, unseen and un-accessed in all that tearing asunder, is the love that we bear for one another, not would,<\/em> but do bear. <\/em>Most of us never know it\u2019s there, or never get to. Boy I sure got to in recent months. There, I\u2019m getting lyrical again. I always do when I think of the things we\u2019ve been talking about.<\/p>\n

\"\"You wrote this “It was an impossible equation, discovering that what you are, is something that your articles of faith insist doesn\u2019t even exist, or it\u2019s a sin to exist.<\/em>” Do you think it is possible that there has been a misinterpretation in the Christian faith in regards to the theology of homosexuality?\u00a0 Can who Jesus was as a person be separated from the theology that is so prevalent in the church? Are you able to separate Him from the theology?<\/strong><\/p>\n

As surely as a vague, grossly incomplete description about my friend is separate from my friend himself. If a person can\u2019t find Jesus in any other place but the Bible, what does that say about that person\u2019s faith in his actual existence right there next to him? On the night I decided my life belonged to Jesus, I experienced all the things people say they experience. One of them being a sense of being suddenly different from a moment before, a sense of assurance of being forgiven for wrongdoing, and the feeling of a new world opening up for me, centered on the Son of God. Nowhere in that experience was there the conviction that the person I was following was bound to the Bible. Even though it was at a home Bible study, on that night there was no sense of being drawn spiritually to the Bible as an instruction manual for my new life. It was after some arguing, and a few more visits \u2013 very long and late sessions of being surrounded with hands laid on me that I conceded to what they insisted, to regard the Bible as the beginning and end of absolute truth about the universe and beyond. It was weeks before I discovered also that the group had a label \u2013 Born Again Christian \u2013 for what we were doing and experiencing. The term as I knew it, didn\u2019t adequately convey what I thought we were seeking, and experiencing. I\u2019d just been saying things like, \u2018Oh, I follow Jesus now, and he\u2019s forgiven my sins, and lives inside me.\u2019<\/p>\n

Okay, so what of The Christian Faith, and it\u2019s popular prohibition against gayness? Hard to say exactly, because everyone seems to believe a little bit differently from everyone else, and I don\u2019t see any one set of beliefs I can point to, to call, \u201cThe Christian Faith.\u201d What do we mean, by \u201cChristianity\u201d? While it\u2019s mentioned in the Bible that there were groups of people calling themselves Christians by name, I find no actual commandment for a follower of Jesus to do so, and thus, no need to conform himself into a document intended to represent all we think we know, but can\u2019t possibly be certain of. Not in order to pursue Jesus, anyway, or do his work.<\/p>\n

Given that distinction, and our hysterical \u2013 I mean historical tendency to rule each other from our fear reflexes \u2013 then yes, it is so very<\/em> possible that Christian restrictions on same sex relationships are mistaken, with deadly consequences. Whether the mistake is the doctrine of the Bible\u2019s inerrancy or in how leaders are interpreting the manuscript for others, the damage speaks for itself in so many ways, from loss of love to loss of life, and the disenfranchisement of countless people who want God as their Father, but are made to believe he would not have them unless they make themselves into someone else. That message to many people, including any gay person (but not stopping there) is, \u201cCome to the kingdom and live abundantly, well, it won\u2019t be you exactly, but whatever\u2019s left after most of what you know as \u2018you\u2019 is slowly shamed to death and forgotten.\u201d<\/p>\n

In places where anti-gay attitudes are particularly strong, the message \u201cJesus Loves You\u201d becomes, \u201cJesus would love for us to twist you into something that won\u2019t make him puke.\u201d Not that I need a count, but how many times in the Gospels did Jesus\u2019 detractors, and even his followers get themselves in a wad about whom he chose to hang out and break bread with? If there is an eternal kingdom beyond this one, filled with love and wonder, let no one feel he is hopelessly shut out from it, or being crushed under it.<\/p>\n

You wrote, “I stood at the gate at the final step, to gaze and gaze at the fires of hell, which seemed so nice and warm to me, but I did not go inside<\/em>.\u201d That is an amazing metaphor for so much in life, not just spiritually, but for many things that pull and push against us… good words! <\/em>Some of the most profound words from this entire article came here, “If God is true, men are liars. I had to let God rule and nothing else \u2013 not the book, the church, not anything I piled onto my back after I set out to follow the Son of God, sight unseen, 14 years earlier. If there\u2019s a secret world \u2013 a pure world in the heart of God \u2013 then it didn\u2019t need any of the stuff we\u2019ve tried to shove into it in our attempts to define it for each other, requiring each other\u2019s strict adherence. Not that there weren\u2019t babies in that bath water, but everyone knows how to throw out bath water without throwing out a baby.”<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Funny and telling what a lyric can do for a person when he needs them to. I remember after my excommunication, having that line from \u201cGod Rules\u201d in my head, \u201cGod is true, men are liars!\u201d I just let the words loop around in there therapeutically, Bill\u2019s voice shouting like that. Sim\u2019s too, our two bands having played all those festivals together. I was saving myself, or someone was. Not necessarily my very life, but most of the stuff that makes a person a person. I bet they never thought that line would have that affect on someone. Another song I\u2019m grateful for was Mike Stand\u2019s, \u201cI\u2019m Only Human:\u201d \u201cNothing more and nothing less, please let\u2019s not forget.\u201d It made me feel less estranged, hearing Mike\u2019s voice, which was always a kind of foundation, singing those things especially. Even in my absence from the band, it made me feel connected in a way I hadn\u2019t before, and gives me confidence that putting my heart out there is the right thing to do. I think that\u2019s one of the things music and art do for people. Plus, it helped me deal with the feeling of having let huge crowds of people down. It comes right back into mind today whenever someone expresses disappointment that I haven\u2019t continued in the propagation of their faith. Slowly over my time in Christian bands, I seemed to shift from promoting a set of beliefs, to promoting, within the context of my faith, the well-being of the people within it and without it.<\/p>\n

Are you still happily married to your man?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Oh yes, going on 16 years, in every way but legal of course. Not being legal hasn\u2019t hurt our relationship itself in any way I can tell, but we\u2019re the lucky ones. There should be nothing less than fully legal marriage for the sake of the countless couples who need it, want it, and so clearly deserve it. For me, an unjustifiable prohibition from a standard social institution \u2013 that\u2019s an attack against human dignity. That\u2019s how I\u2019m affected, and that\u2019s what I see affecting many people, even those who, like countless heterosexuals, don\u2019t plan to marry. When someone complains, \u201cWhy do they need to call it, ‘Marriage’?\u201d, I ask in return, doing my best not to growl the words, \u201cWhy do you need them not to?\u201d Sometimes that\u2019s the only response that\u2019s deserved. When someone responds with a lengthy, heartfelt explanation of his own dignity, he is being very patient and generous, and it feels just like having to explain to a child why he shouldn\u2019t bite his playmates.<\/p>\n

Absurd that there are people who, if I presume that my love and the life I live are of equal value to theirs, are offended by my saying so, to the point of making certain that the government \u2013 aka \u201cCaesar\u201d to Christians \u2013 says I\u2019m not. Who wouldn\u2019t stand up and cry foul at the idea of being constitutionally defined as less valuable, and\/or legitimate? I say let\u2019s learn to esteem one another as highly as ourselves. I\u2019m not the first to say it.<\/p>\n

Do you ever think that you might record again as just a solo artist? I’m stoked about the DAS & the Undercover stuff that is coming, but Holes<\/em> was a defining record in my life for various reasons. I would love to hear\/have something along these lines again.<\/strong><\/p>\n

I can\u2019t tell you how much it means to hear that, even after all this time, and I would love to do more things along those lines. I didn\u2019t expect so many people to even know that the album ever existed. I have no idea how it did before it went back in the can. I have what I need to record music with a little help from my friends, and ideas are forming based on the things I\u2019ve learned since my last band, and things I experienced doing this interview. I\u2019m about to put some vocals on some not-so-serious things, not as follow up for anything, but \u201cjust because.\u201d But that\u2019s just to get my feet wet again. Regardless of what happens to Holes<\/em> itself, or to Chef\u2019s Hat Boxing\u2019s music, of course I\u2019m going to make music and put it out. I\u2019ve been developing material on bass and other instruments in front of friends, non-stop for 12 plus years, so it\u2019s about time I started doing it in front of strangers again, as we become less estranged. I\u2019ll always put my heart in it, since I know no other way. Putting our hearts out there was the key to our best work as Altar Boys, and by \u201cwork\u201d I don\u2019t just mean songwriting, but all the various ways there are for connecting with people, and doing some good.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

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\u201cIf there is an eternal kingdom beyond this one, filled with love and wonder, let no one feel he is hopelessly shut out from it, or being crushed under it.\u201d Before you begin this amazing journey of Ric\u2019s, I want … Continued<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"mf2_syndication":[],"footnotes":"","_links_to":"","_links_to_target":""},"categories":[5,10],"tags":[103,104],"class_list":["post-955","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-articles","category-homosexuality-god-and-the-church","tag-ric-alba","tag-the-altar-boys"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/955","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=955"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/955\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":963,"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/955\/revisions\/963"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=955"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=955"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/downthelinezine.com\/archives\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=955"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}