(Editor’s Note: I really wasn’t in favor of publishing this article, but ultimately I don’t want to censor our writers. However, I didn’t see the need for it as the conservative Christian view of homosexuality gets A LOT of airtime in articles, blog posts, sermons, etc etc, etc. No need to repeat it here. Walden makes the same mistake that many Christians – both Conservative and Liberal – make about the Bible by claiming that it is clear on this topic. A lot of his points here are the same “gotcha” questions that Conservative Evagelical like to throw at people. They have been responded to in a few places, but for a more nuanced look at these issues, I would recommend Response to Kevin DeYoung’s “40 Questions For Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags”. I have tried to keep the editorializing on this article to a minimum, but there are some inaccuracies that need to be pointed out here and there.)
I would venture to say that the last issue we put out, “Homosexuality, God and the Church” was by far the most responded to issue we have done. Matt might disagree with me because he sees all the feedback directly, but from the message board chatter in various places and emails that were sent to me personally, it seems that a bunch of people were talking… good, that was the point. We tried very hard to present three different stories of gay musicians and their journey, stories that we did not take sides on, we were presenting the path they had traveled and are still traveling.
One of my goals with the article was to present the way that I thought the church has responded to this issue. I think the feedback confirmed my beliefs. I saw feedback from people immediately mocking and poking fun to hard lined theology holders – all the way down to people telling me that “I’m going to hell,” and that I am more concerned with the “acceptance of man than the acceptance of God.” We were accused of presenting a bias when we never took a stand on the issue, we were only sharing someone else’s story. I personally never shared my beliefs until very recently on a message board, I made sure that when the article came out I remained neutral because I did not want to promote a theology over the stories, I was hoping the stories would take center stage. I regret recently sharing my personal take on the issue, I should have known better.
One of the good things that came from the article was Ric Alba and Bill Walden reconnecting to a much deeper degree. Many of you will remember Bill as the original lead singer in Undercover, and then he also fronted his own band Fourth Watch several years later. Bill is now a pastor and brought some good dialogue into the conversation. I was particularly interested in how he thought the church has treated the issue of homosexuality because he is a pastor. Ric Alba and I have been in communication numerous times since the article ran, and after he and Bill reconnected, we decided to offer another aspect of the issue as well. This is Bill Walden’s take on the issue of “Homosexuality, God and the Church.” We did dip our toes into theology with this one, even though it is a very shallow stirring of the theological waters. It is not easy to discuss theology and different persuasions through email and text, but Bill has some valid points to what he believes and I am glad that he is able to share them here with us. Again, hopefully this will keep the conversation flowing.
Can you tell me what years you played with Undercover and who else was in the band then?
I auditioned for Undercover in the fall of 1980, and was in the band until March 1984.
When I was in the band, the lineup was Joe Taylor on keys, Gym Nicholson on guitar, Ric Alba on bass, Danny Pavlis on drums and Ray Hersom on guitar.
What albums did you play on?
I was on the first album which was simply called Undercover. I was also on God Rules and Boys And Girls Renounce The World.
Why did you leave the band?
There were a number of reasons why I left Undercover. During my time singing with them, I believed that God was stirring my heart towards pastoral ministry. That would not happen until 1989, but the stirring was starting back in 1983/84.
Internally, I was going a different direction than the band was. There were some personal conflicts among us, and some of the things that the group was embracing, I wasn’t embracing. I was increasingly feeling that I didn’t belong. The ministry aspect of Undercover was changing, and I didn’t fit in with where the band was going. Looking back, the emphasis of what was being communicated is obvious. I don’t believe that John 3:16 needs to be quoted in every song, but for me, communicating Jesus through the music was always the most important thing.
Finally, as has been evidenced by the Branded album (Undercover’s 4th album), the group wanted to go in a direction musically that I was not vocally made for. Musically speaking, the group was blessed to get Sim Wilson as their new singer. They were going in a musical direction of harder, darker music, and I wasn’t a good fit for that. I am fine with all that. Branded was a great album.
Musically, I personally desired to do more of my own thing. Steve Pannier (Altar Boys) and I formed a band called The Fourth Watch. Steve broke away from The Altar Boys for about three years, and we did one album together. I very much enjoyed being more in charge of what I was doing musically, as well as communicating Jesus both on and off the stage.
Let me finish this portion of the interview by saying that though there were personal conflicts as I left Undercover, I am currently friends with all the guys. I share some very different views on God and life than some of them, but we appreciate what happened in those early days of Undercover, and we are friends today, and we have no heartburn with each other. I am very thankful for that. I still consider all those guys my friends. I am still in touch with Joe, Gym, and Ric.
When did you become a pastor and what is the name of your church? Does your church have a website?
I was hired on at Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa in 1989, and was ordained in 1990. In 1991, our family moved to Napa, CA and we started Cornerstone Ministries. I have pastored Cornerstone since ’91. Our web site is www.cmnv.org. For any who might be interested, my personal blogsite is www.pastorbillwalden.com. I write a lot of musings about God and life.
I know what you and Ric talked about to some degree, can you share the crux of the conversation so our readers can know about the agreement that you guys made?
Ric and I rediscovered each other through Facebook, and we started writing back and forth, and making comments on other people’s threads, etc. When I ran into Ric on Facebook, he was openly expressing his homosexuality. We would banter back and forth on people’s Facebook pages, commenting on threads, and disagreeing on some topics, including homosexuality and the theology of substitutionary atonement. We also shared some laughs and gentle jabs at one another. The chemistry felt good.
When Ric was in Undercover, he and I always got along well. He was and is a very funny guy, a very clever guy, and a compassionate man. It was easy to appreciate and enjoy his friendship.
I began to realize that we were talking to each other through other people’s Facebook pages, as opposed to talking directly on the phone. I suggested to Ric that we talk on the phone, and he beat me to the punch.
It was great to reconnect with him, hear his voice, and reminisce a bit. He shared with me about his present life pursuits. I had read his article in your magazine, and had read a lot of other stuff about his early years in church, and his internal conflict regarding his same sex attraction preference, and how that was colliding with his Christian values and/or church culture, those two things not always being equal. I had a pretty good understanding of where he was at, and what he had been through. Reading the article he wrote for your magazine filled in a lot of the gaps, and helped me understand where Ric had been and where he is at now.
I think that by nature, neither Ric nor I are eager to get involved with confrontation, but we are both passionate about what we believe, so the topic of his homosexuality came up. It had to. t was the elephant in the room.
As a Christian man, and as a pastor, I want to understand how people think. I asked Ric to speak freely, and to share his views, feelings, and opinions. I shared mine as well.
I don’t totally understand how gay men think, what they feel, what they want, expect, or how they view the world. I am straight, and Ric is gay. I wanted to understand what makes him tick. I want to not be alienated from gays, but I want to understand them and befriend them, as much as possible.
I shared with Ric about how I was asked to speak at a Prop 8 rally, and how shocked I was to discover that the gay people there were sure that I hated them. I wandered over to a pickup truck where some same sex proponents were making posters, and I hung around for a while. The “No On Hate” posters surprised me. I realize that as a Christian, I live in a sub culture, and so I was surprised at the viewpoints of some of the gay people I talked to that day. I eventually chatted with one gay man, and tried to assure him that I don’t hate gays, but he insisted that all Christians hate gays. I was surprised and saddened, and could only imagine what might have caused that opinion in him.
But I also realized that though I may inadvertently live in a sub culture, so did this man. He lived in a sub culture that told him all Christians hate gays, which is just not true. Our two cultures intersected that day, and I believe that I came out of it a bit wiser and less naïve.
Ric and I discussed the views of some who say that Christian pastors who preach about homosexuality being a sin are actually committing a hate crime. There have been pastors who have been arrested for doing so (editors note: at the time of this article, there had only been one in the UK, and it was by a police officer that did not understand the law correctly). I asked Ric what he thought about that, and would he agree with the charge of a hate crime against me if I preached that homosexuality was a sin.
Ric told me that he would be the first to bail me out of jail. He said that he believes that I have the right to share my view and speak my heart, even if it disagrees with his view and lifestyle. I decided at that point that I need to keep his cell phone number handy. (Insert recorded audience laughter here)
I also asked Ric how he would feel about me writing an article, and expressing an opposing view regarding homosexuality and Christianity. He supported my desire to write this article, saying that he supports my right to express my heart. I wasn’t asking his permission, but the fact that he supported this made it easier to do so.
He and I disagree on a number of things. We disagree about crucial aspects of Christian theology. We disagree on much about Church culture. We disagree on the issue of homosexuality.
However, we both agree that each of us has the right to express our opinions, without fear of retribution. We both struggle with some aspects of The Modern Church. There was much of our common church experience that neither one of us liked, and that we still don’t like as we see it being acted out in the Church Universal. We both agree that mutual love and acceptance of one another is important, even when that love and acceptance doesn’t condone of certain aspects of a friend’s lifestyle choices or convictions.
I disagree with Ric about some big issues, but I love him as a friend and person, and I respect that he has a right to choose his lifestyle, even though I strongly disagree with it.
What are your views regarding homosexuality and the lifestyle?
I believe that homosexuality is a sin. It “misses the mark” of how God created us. It is a lifestyle that God never intended or designed for us.
I think that the Bible is very clear on this issue. I know that people are very passionate on this issue, but I have never understood how what the Bible says about homosexuality could be so misunderstood or twisted to say something other than what it says.
I believe that because of the fallen state of mankind, that we are all predisposed to certain behaviors, tendencies, and desires that fall outside of what God originally intended for us as humans. Everyone has predispositions that lead to sin. There are no exceptions. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is clear.
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (editor’s note: the word “homosexual” was coined in 1869, and does not appear in the original languages. A more accurate translation of “homosexuals or sodomites” in that verse would be “male prostitutes or the men who sleep with them.”)
There are a whole lot of things listed there. This list describes six things that have happened in my life. I stink, and I know it. The great news is found in verse 11. Jesus washes, sanctifies, and justifies all who will come to Him and agree with Him about their need for a Savior.
There are plenty of verses in the Bible about homosexuality, and any number of sins (editor’s note: there are only about 3-4 that are translated to address that issue, but there are probably only 2 that actually address what we now call homosexuality – not plenty). It seems clear to me. Homosexuality is one of many sins that are listed in the Bible, but Christ died to cleanse us from whatever predisposition we may have, and from whatever sins we may have committed.
The essence of Christianity is that mankind has sinned against God, and deserves to be judged for his sins. God loved the world and sent his Son to die for our sins, to bring pardon, forgiveness, healing, restoring, transformation. If we don’t accept God’s word regarding our sins, then why do we need Jesus?
All that being said, I can somewhat understand why someone would be attracted to someone of their same sex. Everyone wants to be loved and be accepted. Everyone wants approval, and wants to feel significant. Gay men might be attracted to men for any or all of the same reasons that hetero men are attracted to women. The desire for sex, the desire for friendship, having a “soul mate”, etc. As I said previously, I don’t know all of how a gay man thinks or feels, so there might be psychological aspects that I don’t understand among some gay men and their same sex attraction, but everyone wants to be accepted. I understand that much.
Whether it be a 50 year old man with a mid-life crisis who divorces his wife for a 25 year old girl, or whether it be a gay man wanting another man, or a young child wrongly seeking approval from an abusive adult, or a parishioner wrongly hoping to please a tyrannical pastor; everyone wants to be accepted and loved, but we often go about it in very wrong ways. And sometimes we just want something so bad that we ignore what God says, and we throw off His restraint, and do what we want.
By your viewpoint, how has ‘the church’ treated homosexuals down through the years?
The Church Universal has some very bright spots in her history, and some very dark spots. I will never defend the sum history of the Church, because many wrongs and many crimes have been committed in the name of Jesus Christ by people who did not rightly represent the true heart of Jesus.
Personally, I hate when Christians wave signs and protest against gays. I hate signs that say, “God Hates Fags.” That is a total misrepresentation of God. God loves mankind. The cross is God’s proof of His love for mankind. God will eventually judge all men, but that doesn’t mean He doesn’t love them.
I personally struggle with factions within the Church that want to mobilize against the Gay community. I realize that there are radicals in all camps, and that they want to exterminate one another. They over react, they assume the worst, and they get to the place where they are filled with hate and in their minds they dehumanize those in opposition to their ideals. Some Christians do it, and some gays do it. Republicans do it, Democrats do it. Conservatives and Liberals do it. All that stuff stinks to me.
Sometimes, I feel as alienated by some factions within the Church as I do by those who hate the Church.
On the other hand, there are those within the Church that love those in the gay community, and are often overlooked. The radicals always get the attention of the press. Those within the Church that quietly love their neighbors, regardless of sexual preference, go quietly unnoticed.
One follow up theologically speaking. I know there isn’t space and time to hash out this stuff in writing. Referencing the scripture that you brought up, I quoted the scripture below, and then a different interpretation below that. Can you share your thoughts with me on this?
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
In the first verse, “Do you not know that the unrighteous…” Before we are saved we are unrighteous, it is salvation and the cleansing of the blood of Christ that makes us righteous. Before we are saved we are known by our actions, our sin, our flesh, etc… after we are saved we are known by our righteousness (our true identity) because we are covered in the blood of Christ. Christ’s blood covers our transgressions, our flesh, so that we can have communion with God. God is Holy, He cannot be around sin or even look on sin, so that is where Christ’s blood covers our sin, our flesh, etc. So, when God looks at his children, He sees the blood of His Son, He doesn’t see our sin, our flesh, etc…He sees His Son. That is why in verse 11 it says “such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” Prior to accepting Christ we were known by our flesh, our sin, our actions (homosexuals, liars, adulterers, etc.) after accepting we are known as children of God. Notice also that justified, sanctified and washed are all past tense, something that already happened, not something that we are waiting to happen.
Obviously this is a surface stab at a much larger issue with a gazillion rabbit trails to run down theologically, but what are your thoughts?
We have two planes of communion with God. There are two ways that we are known by Him. The first way we are known by God is in our positional justification. You described it well. When a man or a woman is in Christ, God can have fellowship with that person because their sins have been paid for. Positionally, that person is considered cleansed, justified, forgiven, holy. The second way that we are known by God is in the realm of practical holiness. Are we walking in a life of holiness? Are we thanking God for our positional justification, but walking day after day in sin?
In this same chapter, in verses 18-20, Paul exhorts the Christians at Corinth to flee sexual immorality.
They have been forgiven, but they still need to flee from sexual sin. 1 Cor. 6:18-20: “Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.” They don’t flee from sexual sin so that they can BE saved, but because they ARE saved. They are exhorted to glorify God in their bodies by NOT participating in sexual sin.
They are told to glorify God by the way they live. So….they are saved, but are commanded to walk in (practical) holiness, and to glorify God in their bodies. They do that by fleeing sexual sin. Ephesians 4:1 is another classic verse about walking in holiness. “I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called”… Ephesians chapters 1-3 explain all that God did to save those Ephesian Christians. Then, based upon what God first did, they are called to walk worthy of the calling (life) to which they were called.
We walk in holiness not to save ourselves (unable to do that), but because we were saved for God, and God is holy. We glorify God when we walk in holiness. The HOLY Spirit leads us into holiness. God is holy.
Jesus died to save us from Hell, and to make us holy. We are to walk in that which Christ died to give us.
PLUS….if he indwells us, Him IN me is longing for holiness IN me. If He is holy, and living in me, and I am living like I used to… That is a disconnect. Him IN me, and me living immorally? How does Jesus feel about that?
In your other email you said “the church is being redefined as it has since the beginning, and the current redefinition is regarding the gay lifestyle.” Can you elaborate on that? How do you think it is being redefined, and do you see this as a good thing or a bad thing?
Since Jesus walked the Earth, He has been misunderstood and pressed into molds that fit people’s preferences. Regardless of what camp we align ourselves with; we shouldn’t try to remake Jesus to fit our lifestyle. Our lives ought to conform to Who He is, not the reverse. I read a quote about 18 years ago which said. “In the beginning, God created man, and since then, man has been trying to return the favor”. That is man’s constant tendency.
Jesus has always been the victim of redefinition. My fight as a Christian and as a man, is to not redefine Jesus to fit my preferences, but to seek to allow Him to conform my life that it may more accurately look like His life.
I believe that the current trend of people saying that you can be gay and be a Christian too is another chapter in the book that redefines Jesus and historical Christianity. I do not believe that this is good. I think it is wrong.
Many of the objections to Biblical references regarding homosexuality are found in the Old Testament, which people quote and try to present as being totally irrelevant for us. Many of those passages are irrelevant to us. This article/interview doesn’t allow for all those arguments to be brought forth.
Suffice it to say that the Old Testament Law was specifically given to the Jews, and is not binding on present day Christians regarding civil actions taken against lawbreakers. Israel was a theocracy (rule of God). America is not a theocracy. We are a democracy. Many of the Old Testament principles are carried forward into the New Testament, but without the civil laws and penalties attached to them.
The principles are the same, but the treatment of people involved is different. It is the eternal principles that we need to be concerned with.
Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament approve of homosexuality. I think a lot of theological gymnastics have to take place in order to re-write or re-interpret scripture in order to try to make homosexuality an acceptable lifestyle for a Christian. (editor’s note: Walden is apparently unaware here and for the rest of the article that the Bible was re-written (literally) in various translations between the 1940s and 1960s to include more anti-homosexual verses. Before then, the word and idea really didn’t appear in translations).
There are plenty of websites and books that discuss all this, and I don’t intend to write out all the theological reasons and scripture verses to try to support my point.
My main concern is this: Christianity is once again being redefined, and the current redefinition is all about the idea that you can actively be gay and be a Christian. I don’t see that in the Bible at all. It’s just not there.
If someone is gay, so be it. God loves gays. God loves all of humanity. But don’t say God accepts homosexuality as a Christian lifestyle. It’s not in the Bible.
Some Christian musicians have recently declared their homosexuality, and are freely integrating it as a part of normal Christian living. My concern is the theological degradation of the faith. Another part of the foundation of the Christian faith is being chipped away at.
This might sound very weird, but I would rather hear people say, “I am gay, and I understand that the Bible condemns homosexuality, but I don’t care, because I don’t believe the Bible”. I would rather see someone reject the Bible than try to re-write it. I would rather see someone reject Jesus than to try to redefine Him.
I believe the Bible to be God’s word to mankind, and my ongoing concern is the current efforts at reshaping it. We ought always seek to understand it, and to apply and re-apply it to our present day culture. In that sense, we are always taking a fresh, new look at it, but this current issue is blatantly erroneous, in my opinion.
To summarize, I do not defend the total sum history of the Christians Church. The Church has done much good and bad. If someone has heartburn with the Church, I am right there with you on much of it.
I apologize in part for much of the current maltreatment of the homosexual community by those who claim to follow Christ. If any readers have been mistreated by The Church, I am saddened. I ask only that somehow, those readers would take a fresh look at Jesus.
I do not live by the civil laws of the Old Testament. Those laws were for the theocratic nation of Israel. Those laws were civil punishment for sins, and I am not under that system.
However, many of the principles do carry over to the Christian faith, and are repeated in the New Testament. Homosexuality is one of the things spoken about on both Testaments. Homosexuality is condemned by God. So is the hatred that some “Christians” have against gays.
It may seem strange that I sound sympathetic to those who have been hurt by the Church, and in the next paragraph, speak of homosexuality being condemned by God. God’s love and his judgment of sin are not mutually exclusive.
Finally, every reader needs to decide whether they believe the Bible or not. We need to understand it in its context, and then we need to decide if we believe it or not.
I say believe it, or don’t believe it, but don’t re-write it.
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.
I will sign off the way I used to autograph albums: “Follow Jesus.”
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