In the last issue we caught up with Allan Aguirre and found out about his band Men as Trees Walking. Because of the nature of the conversation and the depth of what we were discussing, I thought it would be cool to do a follow up interview and talk about things of an even more Biblical nature. We have always tried to maintain a certain distance from establishing any type of theological persuasion in these pages because there are so many people who see things so differently. Having said that, this isn’t us trying to argue a theology or a persuasion, I just wanted to ask more questions about Men as Trees Walking because this is what Allan calls a “prophetic” ministry and I found the scriptural definition of this to be pretty relevant to the music. I thought that our readers would also hopefully enjoy reading about what Aguirre is committed to and what he believes as it relates to scripture, to his music and to his passions. One other thing, I asked Allan if I could grab a couple of pictures from his Facebook page, I don’t know who took these but would like to give credit where it is due if the photographer would like to contact us. I thought these images were pretty amazing!
With such a heavy emphasis on prophecy and the prophetic and the OT scripturally, how do you see that fits in with the NT?
It fits in very nicely, in fact. First off we need to realize that the NT should never have been propagated as “new”; “new” as in “separate” or “replace”. The vast majority of Christianity has been taught for centuries to believe and to approach their walks and the study of the Word in this way: a separation between Old and New – as if the OT was another Covenant – the covenant for the Jews, exclusively – and the NT, the covenant for Christians, Jew or Gentile, exclusively – a separate Covenant. Nothing could be further from the truth! I know we generally get “New Testament” and “New Covenant” from Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20 but the Greek transliterated word used for “new”, kainos, in the Strongs (#2537) means “as respects form: recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn – as respects substance: of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon”. There’s no mention of “separate” or “replaced”. One translation has “This cup is the New Covenant, ratified by my blood, which is being poured out for you.” (emphasis mine) Ratified (verb) sign or give formal consent to (a treaty, contract, or agreement), making it officially valid. I love that.
This “new” Covenant is a continued covenant – entirely and absolutely rooted and established in the “old” Covenant. This is a huge revelation. There is no “new” Covenant without the “old” to base the “new,” continued covenant, on. Another point, which I find mind boggling that most people don’t understand or apply to this is that the writers of the NT based everything they wrote, everything they believed and everything they understood on what Jesus spoke and modeled and the Tanakh (5 Books of Moses, The Prophets and The Psalms = The OT). There was no NT.
When the NT says “word” or “scripture(s)” it’s exclusively referring to the Tanakh – the Scriptures – not the 66-book compilation we call the Bible. It wouldn’t exist in this form for 300+ years from the last dated writing of the NT. I know this may sound silly, but I can’t tell you how many Christians actually believe that the NT is referencing the Bible. It’s ludicrous! So again, this whole thing is based and founded on the OT exclusively. I have heard it suggested that the NT is something like 70% OT re-quoted or paraphrased. A lot of our NT one liners are actually re-quotes from the OT. So in regards to your question, how does prophecy, the prophetic and the OT fit in to the NT, it fits very naturally, actually.
The entire content of the NT is prophesied in the OT:
The Gospels:
- The promise of Messiah.
- A Levitical Priest, Zacharias, whose wife (Mary’s cousin) is a descendent of Aaron the brother of Moses, to them is birthed John, a Nazarite from the womb – in the spirit and power of Elijah – to proclaim Him, Messiah.
- The birth of Messiah, on or around The Feast of Tabernacles (our September/October)
- Jesus on numerous occasions states “until I fulfill everything that has been written about me in the Books of Moses, The Torah (law of Moses), The Prophets and some Psalms”.
- The teachings of Jesus are entirely OT based.
- The arrest, preparation and death of Messiah mirrored the Feast of Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
- Jesus is sacrificed on the same mountain Abraham attempted to sacrifice his only son, Isaac. That was very prophetic in nature.
- The resurrection of Messiah mirrored the Feast of First Fruits.
- After His resurrection Jesus expounds to His disciples all the things in the Scriptures (OT) concerning Him. He then reminds them that all things must be fulfilled (future tense) which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets concerning Him and then opened their understanding that they might comprehend these Scriptures. (Luke 24:27, 44, 45) Jesus is once again reestablishing His foundation and teaching on the Torah – post resurrection. The same established teaching foundation He held pre-crucifixion.
Acts:
- Peter connects a prophetic Psalm by David to Judas and his replacement.
- Pentecost occurs on the same exact day that Moses received Torah on Mt. Sinai (Shavu’ot). That’s not necessarily “prophetic” but very prophetic in nature.
- Peter’s speech to the pilgrims in Jerusalem that day quotes the prophet Joel and David.
- They meet in the temple courts daily and at the hour of prayer (in observance of Torah). Again, not specifically “prophetic” but, in modern Christianity, this (Torah observance) is supposedly an OT / Jewish-specific only observance and not “for the NT gentile church”.
- Peter, after healing the lame man at the temple gate called Beautiful, quotes Deuteronomy in his message and refers to Jesus as “a prophet like Moses”.
- In his defense for the healing of the lame man, Peter, to the people’s rulers, elders and Torah teachers, quotes a prophetic Psalm regarding Jesus as the “cornerstone rejected”.
- Stephen’s whole defense is based on the OT.
- Philip’s conversion of the Ethiopian Treasury Minister was based on a prophecy by Isaiah.
- The gospel opening up to the gentiles was also prophesied in the OT.
- On various occasions, Paul interrupts his missionary journeys to return to Jerusalem to observe the biblical feasts.
- James, boasting to Paul, declares that tens of thousands of believers in Jerusalem are zealous for the Torah.
- Paul, acting on the council of James, submits to a Nazarite purification ritual.
- Paul, while offering temple sacrifices in accordance with the Nazarite purification ritual, is jumped by Jews from Asia Minor.
- Paul defines Christianity, The Way, as a sect of Judaism and admits to believing everything written in the Torah of Moses and the Prophets. (The letters / epistles) The foundational teachings found in the writings of the Apostles are all based and grounded in Jesus and the OT.
I’m not disputing the validity of the prophetic, just curious to your view of how it relates today if the Spirit is available to all men, and therefore communicates with everyone?
I believe that the Spirit is available to all men today – in the exact manner and with the exact power and manifestations we read about in both the OT and NT. I believe that that same Spirit desires to communicate with everyone today, as He did then, but in the same way that that communication was entirely dependent on the Human then, that communication is entirely dependent on the human today. The Spirit could be “communicating,” but that human may not have the ability to hear, see or discern that communication. I also see, in scripture and in real life today, that this communication, manifestation and power are contingent on our sowing into that level of relationship. If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow – and if the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead, the same Spirit that dwelt in Peter and Paul, dwells in me, and Peter’s shadow could heal the sick and both Peter and Paul could raise the dead, then so can I – and I’m not raising the dead and my shadow doesn’t heal the sick. What’s changed? Not God. Not His Spirit. We have.
I do obviously not believe this thing as much as those two did nor am I sowing into this thing as much as they both did because the same result is available to me today. Jesus empowered the disciples over sickness, unclean and evil spirits and death pre-Pentecost. He also declared, pre-Pentecost, that His followers would speak in tongues, heal the sick, cast out demons and raise the dead. I see these as the “bundled” gifts that come with salvation, if you will. “Earnestly desire the best gifts,” Paul writes. “Do we all prophesy? Do we all speak in tongues,” etc., he continues. “No,” was his answer. In Corinthians Paul states that he wished we all prophesied and spoke in tongues. In Ephesians he writes, “He made some prophets.” Being a prophet and being prophetic are 2 different things. But what’s the real problem? The real problem is the vast majority of Christianity doesn’t believe any of this is “for us today.” That’s going to really hinder the Spirit! After revealing Himself to the synagogue in Nazareth, Jesus was unable to do many miracles that day because of their unbelief. This is Jesus we’re talking about! How does unbelief render us impotent to the power and depth of revelation of God? Isn’t this the same Jesus that spent most nights during His public ministry in the mountains praying and fasting? What does that tell us? The majorities of Christians I encounter don’t fast, let alone live a life of prayer. I believe the same Holy Spirit found in both the OT and the NT is available to us today and that the same desire He had to communicate with man in the OT and NT is His same desire today.
Do you still see that the same rules apply to today’s prophets as it did in the bible?
Yes. God has no shadow of turning and is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Just the term “prophetic” carries a huge amount of weight, what are the implications if you “hear” wrong?
I absolutely agree. It’s not anything to be taken lightly. Paul wrote that we know and prophesy in part. He also wrote, “let us prophesy in proportion to our faith.” As in anything, it takes practice – practice to grow our faith and our gifting / abilities. I think Christians so remove the biblical text from practical common sense that the idea of a “school” to learn this stuff isn’t a concept easily grasped. We know Paul taught in such a school for two years (Acts). These things have to be modeled in discipleship. That discipling is going to involve trial and error.
You’re asking me “what are the implications if you ‘hear’ wrong”. The implications are twofold:
- to the hearer or receiver of an incorrect prophecy or prophetic word.
- to the giver of an incorrect prophecy or prophetic word.
To the hearer, it can be disastrous. This is where spiritual discernment and the testing / judging of spirits is crucial. This also stresses the absolute need for discipleship and a firm biblical foundation. If the hearer is new to the dynamic of the prophetic or just new to Christianity, this is where the discipler or “mentor” comes in handy. Unfortunately, many know little to nothing about spiritual discernment or the testing of spirits, and actual discipleship is a rarity in the church, let alone the discipleship of spiritual gifts. It’s impossible to model something you don’t believe in or don’t know. This is a travesty and the norm within the church, which leads us to the giver of prophetic words.
To the giver, it can be disastrous. We’ve all seen it. It’s caused many to renounce or discredit the subject matter. It’s at epidemic proportions today and not without merit. Just because they say they are prophets or prophetic doesn’t mean that they are. If they are then they have the responsibility to hone their gifting in private so as not to fall into the “false prophet” category. Or, prophesy within the context of the biblical teaching on the matter. Gee, what a concept. We are extremely careful to call anything we say or do “prophetic”. Paul wrote, “Let two or three prophets speak, while the others weigh what is said. And if something is revealed to a prophet who is sitting down, let the first one be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, with the result that all will learn something and all will be encouraged. Also, the prophets’ spirits are under the prophets’ control; for God is not a God of unruliness but of shalom. If anyone thinks he is a prophet or is endowed with the Spirit, let him acknowledge that what I am writing you is a command of the Lord. But if someone doesn’t recognize this, then let him remain unrecognized. So, my brothers, eagerly seek to prophesy; and do not forbid speaking in tongues; but let all things be done in a proper and orderly way.” (1 Corinthians 14:29-33a, 37-40) This is real instruction on the subject and we are, thankfully, under this type of scrutiny, covering, council and accountability by other prophets and/or prophetic people. Like I said, we take this subject seriously and it’s not one we want to be lazy or careless about.
I think this would be a great place to continue with Paul on this matter, “Brothers, don’t be children in your thinking. In evil, be like infants; but in your thinking, be grown-up. In the Torah it is written, ‘By other tongues, by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people. But even then they will not listen to me,’ says ADONAI. Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. So if the whole congregation comes together with everybody speaking in tongues, and uninstructed people or unbelievers come in, won’t they say you’re crazy? But if you all prophesy, and some unbeliever or uninstructed person enters, he is convicted of sin by all, he is brought under judgment by all, and the secrets of his heart are laid bare; so he falls on his face and worships God, saying, ‘God is really here among you!’” (Acts 14: 20-25) Isn’t that beautiful?
In the first interview you said, “This means that if God doesn’t show up when we play, if the Spirit doesn’t manifest in some form, be it healing, salvation, deliverance, word of knowledge; if we don’t “provoke” or provide the atmosphere for an intersection between the King of the Universe and the people “listening” when we play, then something is/went wrong.” Do you believe that God “showing up” is only proved by an action like one of these manifestations that you mentioned?
Great question and a tricky one; tricky because it can “pigeon hole” me but great because I think it’s important to really “know” what “God looks like” in our physical realm. Just based on the verses above we see the value of a prophetic manifestation in revealing the reality of God in an individual’s life. A large majority of the time we’re
seeing this occurring in the lives of believers as well; being “…convicted of sin by all,… brought under judgment by all, and the secrets of his heart are laid bare; so he falls on his face and worships God, saying, ‘God is really here among you!’” The manifestation of God, the supernatural in the natural (which is still natural, by the way, it’s just super) has always had an impact on homosapiens, good or bad. That “manifestation” can be a still small voice but there are more instances in the biblical text where His manifestation was of an action best described as “signs and wonders.” Like Paul says, these types of manifestations provoke the response, “God is really here among you!” That comes in pretty handy when you’re doing what you’re doing. Heh…
Can you explain what the “whosoever” movement is?
The best way to describe it is by letting them describe it. Go to thewhosoevers.com/about. Also, check out their mini documentary.
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