An interview with the man behind Flock 14, World Theatre and McAllister.
Tim McAllister has put out relatively few albums over the last 25 years… but what he has put out are a few select high quality records. I would say McAllister is driven more by a need for a catharsis then he is recognition. He was one of the very first alternative acts that showed up in the mid to late eighties, fronting what would become known as Flock 14. There is actually much history even prior to the Brave New World record that fans are aware of, but for most this would be the starting point and the beginning of a new sound in Christian music. For me, I actually became a fan in a different order. I picked up a cassette called World Theatre years and years ago. I picked it up because I thought the name was cool and because it was on Frontline Records, which put out great acts back then. The music was very different from what was in the Christian music scene in those days: it was moody, dark and melancholy. The stories captured within the lyrics were tales of grief, passion and hope. It was absolutely perfect music, especially for someone like me who was very much into moody, deep and emotionally connecting bands like The Cure and Jesus and the Mary Chain back in those days (actually even up until today as well).
I told Tim that World Theatre was a staple of my youth, one of the records that ran deep and really defined a period in my life. He was completely quiet after the remark, and then he said how cool it was that people still find his music so memorable and that it really meant something to people. That seems to be the payoff for McAllister – he is just happy that the records he makes primarily to get his own emotions and feelings out really talk and mean something to others as well. He was one of the nicest and most gracious people that I have ever interviewed. It was funny to me that he seemed genuinely surprised that Matt and I here at Down the Line were as interested in the history of his bands. We talked about everything, Flock 14, Graceland Records, Blue Collar Records, World Theatre, Echo Theatre, New History and Awkward Age. It was a great conversation and I had a fun time.
Tim has worked with some of the best – Jimmy A., Gene Eugene and Linford Detweiler just to name a few. He co-produced and engineered the first two Over the Rhine albums which were my favorite (and the only Over the Rhine that I actually own). There was just something unique, exciting and beautiful about those first two releases. If you want to find McAllister’s work it is out there, you can link up to his website to get his latest release which was titled Strong Tower. Strong Tower was released in 2007 but carried on brilliantly right where World Theatre left off. There is an obvious artist progression on the last release, and there was the incorporation of horns in some areas, but the music and the sound is still distinctly Tim McAllister. I am pleased to cover him here, his music is a gift.
Who were the players in Flock 14 and can you give a little history about how you guys got together?
Interesting you bring this up right now Steve, the Flock 14 album was just released onto iTunes and is being well received. It’s amazing to see the album continue on after all these years.
So to the history, this will take a bit 🙂
Bryan DeHart (drums) and I played with a few different bands for a year or so. It was straight forward rock stuff like Petra and Rez band. Aspects were rewarding but never felt like the right mix of players and music. One day I saw a video of U2 playing “Gloria” on TV. I was stunned. I got on the phone and starting calling record stores in Portland. I finally found a store with a single used copy of October. The guy told me he just got one in and hadn’t priced it. I asked him to hold it, offering to pay whatever he wanted. He had never heard the band and thought I was crazy. True story! I still have that album.
Brian and I continued to work with a string of others until someone told Brian about a guy who played keyboards named “snake”. I thought that was so cool. Well, this was Dennis Childers brought his keyboards and love for Kraftwerk, Brian bought an electronic drum kit and inspired by U2 I bought an echo pedal. The band was born!
We spent the next two years playing anywhere we could set up; churches, picnics, weddings and night clubs. We also started opening for a lot of the bands from that time as they came through town: Undercover, Daniel Amos, Lifesavers, and Jerusalem. The band recorded a lot of material, most released on cassette albums, and eventually sent out to record companies. We ended up talking to four different labels. Through our connections with Gene from Adam Again we finally ended up in LA talking to Harry Barnes of Blue Collar Records (441, Undercover, Adam Again). We really like Harry, the label rooster was unbelievable, and so we set out in that direction.
That was really the productive era of Flock 14 as the original band didn’t last much beyond that. We moved to Cincinnati to better base ourselves for touring. But finding ourselves 2,000 miles from home, and Blue Collar records going bankrupt, the toll was heavy. Brian moved to Seattle and Dennis worked on personal projects. I continued on my own with local players. Within a few months I found myself playing at Cornerstone where I met Caesar Kalinowski from Graceland records. I was playing as World Theatre now, but told him about Flock 14. A few weeks later he drove down from Chicago to Cincinnati to listen to the previous recordings and he wanted to put the album out.
So that’s how Brave New World came about. Oh and we never once called Dennis “snake”.
I know that Linford Detweiler, Gary Egger, and Jimmy A played on World Theatre’s first release, but wasn’t the record primarily done by just you?
The album was born out of work Linford and I was doing with drummer Bill Bullock. It was my creation, but both those guys were core to realizing the album.
Gary had moved out to Cincinnati after the original Flock 14 disbanded on the premise we would build a new band together, but things just worked out differently. He did play on a few songs and toured with us a bit, but was heavily into his own solo project by that time. I flew alone to LA to finish the album with Gene Eugene. Jimmy was down from San Francisco one afternoon, so we plugged him in. He added a couple nice things to two tracks.
Without prying into a sensitive subject, I know that you have been open about how your sister passed away, and I wanted to offer my condolences. I think that “Gently Down (Last Thursday)” is the most beautiful and haunting track on the first World Theatre album… the imagery with the fire truck and the emotion behind the song is very powerful. Where did you find the resolve to get through such a tremendous loss? Is there any encouragement that you could offer anyone else who has endured that type of loss?
Thanks Steve for your sensitivity. Last time you and I talked the tsunami had just hit Japan. The death toll from that is 15,000 people and still growing. Thousands of mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and children taken in an instant. My sister’s death was bizarre and headline news, but we all suffer the pain when losing someone close.
It was ten years before I could talk about my sister’s death without a knot forming in my chest and throat. I’m not sure I will or ever should get fully over it in this mortal life. But good has come from it. It’s deepened my capacity for compassion and slowed my eager but insensitive responses. Searching for a solution didn’t help. Sure, I can rationalize it. As bizarrely unusual the circumstances were, she was doing something she loved. She was killed in the course of the natural, God given behavior of an animal. But I don’t know why she died at 26, that seems so young to me now. I don’t know why it was her and not me.
I would encourage acceptance. Acceptance of the event for an eventual purpose. The purpose may remain unknown for years; perhaps never know in this life. But God’s purpose is present. I think the words of the song convey this.
Who are your musical influences with World Theatre?
Hmm. “What are your influences” questions are easier that “who do you sound like”!
I have no idea what the album “sounds like” but I know what I was listening to. Tears for Fears, ‘Till Tuesday. Shriekback, Simple Minds, The Cure, The Durutti Column, The Dream Academy, The Waterboys. Certainly another dozen bands, but that’s a representative list. Of course the lyrical content was, and has always been about my struggle between earth and heaven.
I know that you also play in Papa Salty, that is such a different style from World Theatre, how did that come about?
An interview in itself.
Apart from my leading both, Papa Salty couldn’t be more different. It was born out of a love I found in old jump and swing blues like T-Bone Walker or maybe Louis Jordan, and shouters like Big Joe Turner. The blues is really an amazing musical form. Applying nuances and interpretations to a stupid simple structure of 12 measures and 3 chords can take a lifetime. It’s a sort of endless freedom based on a common musical language.
I feel in love with this and played with some incredible people. We had an amazing run at it. I put it aside two years ago to work through some other things, but will return someday. Great fun, but totally unrelated 🙂
Did World Theatre play live much back with the first release?
Not much. We did some stuff in Cincinnati, Nashville and Chicago, but I don’t recall anything beyond that.
The World Theatre songs were built from the ground up in the studio. It can be difficult to adapt that to a live thing. When we did fire it up to play live, if I recall, it was Linford on piano and keyboards, Bill Bullock on drums, Gary Egger on second guitar and Dennis Childers (yes, from Flock 14) on bass.
For me as a fan, the first World Theatre release was so groundbreaking in Christian music because there was nothing else stylistically the same as that release. Your second album, Strong Tower, is different musically, but still has the same vibe and feel as well. It is a welcomed return!
Thanks again Steve. Those are kind words.
Why did you decide to give the album away free as a download as well as sell a physical copy?
Well first, why have a physical CD at all? I included segues between most of the songs on the Strong Tower album. Listening to an “album” one song after another in the order the artist intended lends itself well to segues. But this just doesn’t translate well to iTunes 🙂 So I offer the CD experience, but we need to recoup expenses when producing physical inventory, so it is sold.
The physical CD ends up with a few minutes of extra content, including some piano work from Linford Deitweiler. People do tell me the CD is worth the effort as the segues add a lot of impact.
Finally as far as free digital downloads, I do this music solely to express and communicate. Right now, I simply desire to get it out to others. The emails and letters I get are all the payment I need.
Your website says that you are currently working on a release titled Nowhere Nebraska, what stage is that recording in and will it also follow in the same style musically as the other two releases?
Yes, Nowhere Nebraska. That title came from a letter I received a few years back. In the letter the person spoke of the hope they had found in the music and how it persuaded them from committing suicide. The letter was signed “Nobody from Nowhere Nebraska”.
I have maybe 15 songs in some stage of completion. Musically it is an evolution of World Theatre and Strong Tower.
You also have a gift of writing, the lyrics are very good as well as the notes that you write in the liner, etc. Do you write outside of music?
Thank you Steve. To be clear, some of the liner notes have come from my dear friend and photographer Michael Wilson. He has written a number of things that have impacted me deeply. In fact the words to Strong Towers title song was adapted from a passage in one of his books.
I love allegory, metaphor and word play. I am amazed at the power of words. I do actually write a lot outside of music, though I don’t share it publicly.
What would you like to share and have people know about World Theatre, Flock 14 and Papa Salty that you haven‘t had a chance to share?
Really Steve. I am just humbled to know some of my music has traveled with people through life. But it’s not me. It’s my being used as an instrument in the hand of God. And that is a strange and wonderful thing.
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